To ask what your neurotypical view is… What is normal?!

Nobody talks about them outside of ND spaces - because the other things work for 97% of people.

You don’t mean ND spaces though do you? You mean autistic or adhd spaces.

OK - sorry to keep on. I still don't really understand what about a label would make it harder. Do you mean because you came to understand that everyone struggles with those things, but you saw people being successful at them, that meant that you could be too, and the label might get in the way of that? Because it would make you think that the other people didn't have the labelled issue so it was easier for them and it might not be as easy for you?

I think the things that you mention, some of them (public speaking, job interviews) make most people anxious, whereas talking to people and going to parties, even alone, would not make everyone feel anxious. I don't mean that it is abnormal to feel that way, because I agree that plenty of people would and if you looked around a room of people at a public event, you would not necessarily know which of them spent their 20s feeling anxious, and which of them loved every minute from the start.

I think my experience of ND is more extreme than that and I did think that way for a lot of years - oh, everyone finds this hard, I just have to get on with it. The problem was that it didn't get easier, and trying lots of different ways to improve didn't help. In fact the more things I tried the more I started to wonder what was wrong with me, because I was doing everything right according to what the books or advice said, or what worked for other people. I knew that not everything would work for me, but if nothing worked, then what?

What did help in the end was to find out that it was in fact more difficult for me than for most people, I wasn't imagining it, and for people who have my label, different approaches can help and this is what they are. And then talking to other labelled people to find out what they had found helpful. Obviously I still had to try, and put the effort in, but it was amazing how that was actually effective once I was using the right tools for me, that take my difficulties into account.

Actually this has been helpful. Thank you I have realised that DH said - but you could have used those approaches anyway, you don't need a label to do that. And the thing is, I couldn't. Because I didn't know they existed until after I had the label. Nobody talks about them outside of ND spaces - because the other things work for 97% of people. Not every approach works for every person, but the majority of approaches which are suggested for any given problem will be things which work for a much larger percentage of people, like 20% or 30% or even more than half. An approach which only works for some proportion of a group which makes up about 3% of people is never going to be very popular, it is much too niche - especially if it doesn't work for 97% or goes against what works for the majority. Unless you have a way to flag it as being helpful for that 3%. Which is what a label is and does.

I think your advice to your DD was exactly right.

I have probably not explained very well, but I think anxiety about meeting people, being nervous about public speaking, worrying about going to a party alone is quite normal really, and not necessarily indicative of ND. The vast majority of people are nervous about these things. I also have a voice in my head most of the time. I think this is normal too!

I think I was better served by thinking all these things were normal, and could be improved. In my case, they did improve with practice. ( I am not saying that is the case for everyone).

DD is in her first job and had to do a huge number of interviews to get it. She tends to be anxious about these things, but I just tell her that feeling anxious is normal, and can be helped with preparation and practice. Her first interview was terrible, but by the last she was sailing through. It helped her, I think, more than rushing to label her.

I'm pretty sure I'm NT and I have a permanent voice in my head - generally one beating me up and telling me what a failure I am. Life is bloody difficult for most people, especially when you have anxiety, depression and low self esteem. I don't recognise the descriptions of NT people in this thread. If only being NT meant we could switch our brains off and take to all social events like a second skin.

Genuine question and not being goady.

How does a label make life harder?

I am reading between the lines an assumption that if you'd had a "label" to explain your dislike of those things, then you would have breathed a sigh of relief and gone "It's OK. I'm this type of person. I don't have to learn to do those things." and you would have been ultimately worse off - is that reading correct?

I am trying to understand this because I have an ADHD diagnosis and so do 2/3 of my DC, I got mine first and I found it lifechanging. My DH, while supportive, thinks the whole diagnosis thing is bizarre and wonders why it needs a "label" (he acknowledges medication is helpful) and in general he is no fan of labels of this type. He thinks people should be able to access medication and support if it is necessary, without a label. I would like to understand - we have talked about it but we talk past each other because it's like we are ascribing totally different meanings to the same words.

I agree that disliking phone calls is more of a generational thing than an ND specific thing BTW. We have got out of the habit of it, so we are less used to it and it feels more intrusive.

I've occasionally wondered if I am ND, but generally function pretty "normally". Things I do related to your questions:

Going somewhere new - I don't stress about this, but I do prepare. E.g. I booked a three day trip for April this week, and have already google street viewed every step I will need to take, to make sure I won't get lost, and I have planned what I will eat for the entire trip and where i will buy it from. Is that normal? Dunno. I quite enjoy it though, so don't see it as a problem.

The social/work side, I find it easy to fit into various teams at work, and I know I am perceived as easy going, friendly and well liked at work. I am definitely introverted, and was shy but have grown out of that. However I have no actual friends that I socialise with. All my (non-romantic) relationships are at a superficial "did you have a nice weekend" level. If I ever sought a diagnosis it would be to allow me to stop feeling shame about this. I feel like i need to hide the fact that I've never e.g. been to a hen do, or a party as an adult. However, I don't think that is really enough to make me ND. I think it just makes me socially inept, tbh.

I'm ok on the phone, i think most people plan a script for phone calls, we do it so much less now than 20 years ago. I am not sure these sort of examples are of any help to you, sorry.

There was a thread on here once (admittedly on the ND board) about how it would feel to be NT and not have thoughts going through your mind all day and have your brain switch off. When NT people said that was not their experience they were told to go away and stop neurosplaining.

It isn't possible to know what other people think or feel but it seems fair game for some ND people to assume they know how NT people think when it would be seen as hugely offensive if the opposite happened.

It must be lovely to have an reason for all the times you feel you've messed up socially, said the wrong things, upset people, made the wrong choices, felt different to others etc. I would love to have a reason as I know it would make me feel so much better about myself. So I understand why people pursue a diagnosis. But, honestly, I think most people worry and get anxious about all sorts of things - it's part of life. I am hopeless at socialising and I dread it, but force myself to go out. I'm in my 50s and been very antisocial / shy my whole life, but I just accept it as part of my personality and make the best of my life. What else can anyone do?

IME, the difference between NT and ND is flexibility of thinking (ND people tend to be more rigid) and a felt sense of what is right or wrong in social situations without it being spelled out.

Going somewhere new/entering a room/bar/restaurant on my own. Lots of people struggle with this, I have many NT friends who would not enter somewhere by themselves.
Making a phone call nope, most NT people I know would not struggle with this unless they have very high anxiety.
Understanding social niceties/manners This is a biggie. You have to have a good theory of mind to understand these, and this is often more of a challenge for ND people.
how to begin convos Not easy for a lot of people, but again, theory of mind makes this easier. There are strategies you can use to help with this, lots online about it.
Have a low tolerance for liars. Most people dont love it - but again, IME, what is considered 'lying' and therefore beyond the pale, and what is social nicety is not always easy to unpick.
Understanding text messages. Hmm. Not sure if this is a ND issue - although communication is complex so perhaps without more context it makes it harder to understand what is required.
Moods. Lots of things impact mood, and it can be hard to manage and feel stable. But you may also be having ASD meltdowns, and may benefit from looking at info on zone of tolerance. Because you are probably used to overthinking in order to manage the world, it is possible you are getting stuck in thinking loops which affect your mood and make you feel worse.
Understanding about other people you mention moving people out of the way which many other people would experience as very rude, Rather than relying on what 'feels' right, you may need to have some rules for yourself which you always do. I.E. I never put hands on people at work unless it is to do CPR on someone who has collapsed. Developing more rules for yourself can take some of the pressure off.

Its is a great question as everyone sees the world in a different way, and trying to understand other peoples views is endlessly fascinating to us as a species. Good luck in the future.

I'm merely saying that NT people too have anxiety (a normal and very necessary feature of human experience, designed to help us survive as a species) and can have constant chatter in their brain (also, survival)

I don't know how ND people experience the world, I'm very much NT, but I'm still a human being, not a house plant.
But being told that NT people don't experience anxiety or conversations with oneself is precisely what you're suggesting I'm doing.

What the OP means is there's a constant voice in her head with different thoughts like an ongoing narration or conversation 24/7. Which NT people don't have.

What a sweeping generalisation! I disagree.

It is like ‘masking’ as if that is something only certain people do. Everybody masks how they feel in the presence of others. Often it is referred to as ‘being polite’, ‘good manners’, ‘behaving professionally’, ‘being friendly’. Do you think a nurse on a Saturday night night shift in A&E is being her ‘whole self’ when she patiently stitches up a cut on the hand of her tenth drunk of the night?

Fully disagree with this. Being energised and stimulated by social interaction is extroversion, NT people are just as likely to be introverted and therefore find social interaction tiring and draining.

There is no “NT” worldview or personality or way of being. It’s just as much of a spectrum as neurodiversity is.

I am very NT, when compared to my best friend who is ND. to specifically answer your question:
I don’t have any issues with going somewhere new or being alone
I don’t love making phone calls but they aren’t a problem really.
I don’t have any problems with social niceties or convos, in fact I think it’s really obvious when people do and I try to then be kinder to them in the situation. It comes very naturally to me to make conversation - a friend after watching Downton once said I’d have fit right in with all the unspoken rules and how de dos. Unsure if it was a compliment….
I don’t like liars but if the lie doesn’t impact me I don’t actually care and I understand in some circumstances why you would. I certainly tell white lies.
I’m quite good with adapting around rules and the ‘grey’ areas…some of this is learnt though, through the nature of my job I think
No issues with text messages, I must send hundreds in a day and am in at least eight group chats
I don’t think I’m particularly moody, unless somethings upset me and even then it’s no bother to pull myself together and decide not to be in a mood (unless it’s really bad of course). I do loose my temper sometimes, but not to the point of it impacting me and I can have my equilibrium back very quickly.
I wouldn’t like to live alone, I need to be around people. I’m not a total extrovert but I do need people - probably about 70% extrovert.
I cannot imagine ‘just moving someone’ and would think it the height of ignorance/rudeness if I saw it, and call it out if you did it to me. Excuse me or pardon me is second nature.

I certainly couldn’t diagnose you, but it does seem like you experience the world in a very different way than me.

Well said, I totally agree, we are presented with a fictitious picture of ‘normal’ so everyone runs around like headless chickens shouting ‘I’m not normal’.
there is no normal, we are all individuals with different quirks of nature, to me that does not make us ND it makes us a human being.

A lot of NTs people are introverts and not extroverts.

I imagine for NT people they just have that social brain, as in they are energised and stimulated from social interaction and seek it out. They are probably also just naturally predisposed to be social in general and don’t think twice about what they’re going to say.

This is SO not true. Next, NT people can leap buildings in a single bound! I am being facetious, because they way NT people have been eulogised on this thread is weird.
We feel anxious, sad, worried, nervous, tired from socialising, peopled out just like anyone else.

What does this mean for me then that I have absolutely zero internal narration?! It totally blew my mind when I found out that other people actually think in words. I have thoughts flying around constantly, but they're not in words. Just... thoughts. Pre-verbal concepts I suppose 🤣

I am NT and this definitely isn’t the case with me. I have to make a real effort to see people and feel drained for a long time after socialising. I also worry constantly that I’ve said the wrong thing and frequently do ‘put my foot in it’.

OP I also hate making calls - and don’t mind receiving them so much. I think for me it’s the anticipation. I’m also rubbish if I have an appointment that isn’t first thing in the morning as it means I get nothing done ahead of it as I’m just thinking about the appt and getting there. So I guess it’s kind of the same with phone calls!

I am good at reading people and understanding what’s wanted in a professional situation, but have fallen down sometimes for not understanding enough of what’s required of in terms of ‘soft skills’ around that ie I’ll just want to arrive and start the job in hand straight away, not have a cup of tea and a biscuit sort of thing….

I think sometimes I probably do better socially with strangers than people I know - it feels easier to start things off I guess.

I hope some of that’s helpful and things go smoothly with your daughter’s assessment.

Yes I’m positive. I don’t want to go into detail about my mental health but I’m definitely not ND

Doesn't exist is my opinion. There is no typical brain. All brains are different. Also the term ND was created to talk about all brains not specific ones.

I don’t think anyone is ‘neurotypical’.

If we take neurodiversity to be the diversity of how we think then the single biggest cause is age. But most people don’t like to consider that. Then IQ (learning disabilities are allowed to be considered at times, but rarely high IQ, and rarer other IQs). And cognitive function can be broken down into things like processing speed, working memory that may or may not be a part of another condition. The various neurodevelopmental conditions like dyslexia, dyspraxia, autism, adhd, dyscalculia, sensory processing conditions, epilepsy. There are other conditions like EUPD, schizophrenia, depression, psychopathy, bipolar disorder, OCD. Sensory disabilities like deafness or blindness can change how we think too. As can different languages or being a polymath. Then there are acquired brain conditions like stroke, dementia, cerebral palsy, cancer, traumatic brain injury, CJD, brain injury from diseases like meningitis. Plus of course drugs (street or medical) use can cause permanent changes. Then we get into a weirder realm of parasites and their impact on our thinking…. And gut bacteria is a big source of study. Plus genetic conditions, nutrition (eg iodine deficiency or mercury poisoning), neglect as a child, conditions acquired in the womb (eg FASD, rubella)

Too often I hear ‘We must consider neurodiversity. I don’t mean all that! I mean autistic like me, not those other things!’

Isn’t normal a line which the majority of the human race sits on somewhere and others fall off, either one end or the other. There seems to be a depressing rush to be “normal” at the moment. As normal isn’t one thing, it cannot be defined which means we should just both celebrate and accept our differences whilst supporting (with all our hearts) those who cannot sit in their place on the line without support.
Don’t strive to be normal; strive to be part of the amazing human race, everyone giving and receiving support in equal measure.

Who knows if I'm NT or ND but DH is a fully diagnosed, paid up, member of the ND tribe.

One of the key differences I see between myself and DH is working memory. His is almost non existent. This isn't just forgetting to buy milk at the supermarket of forgetting a family member's birthday. It's forgetting to even go to the supermarket or that the person with the birthday exists. He might leave 6 months between messaging his closest friend. This friendship is very important to him and highly valued but he just won't remember to communicate with them because they aren't immediately in his line of sight. He's also forgotten to go to gigs that he's bought tickets for, missed many drs appointments (ironically one recently was to participate in a study on poor memory for AuDHD folk) etc. I might be forgetful but it's no where near the same scale as DH.

Obviously these conditions exist within a spectrum so not everybody has the same experience. This is just my observations and a theme that DH really struggles to manage.

@Marianus are you sure you're NT though? I thought I was NT until I was about 40 even though I had a DS who was so stereotypically autistic even I (with then very limited knowledge) couldn't fail to notice. Looking back, it's laughable that I thought I was NT but there we are!