The brainlessness of an English Tutor. Fuming

For goodness sake. The OP never intended to say those words. She cleverly used the example to illustrate how words are never ’just words’.

But I’d also argue that words in a piece of fiction are/can also be nasty. Wouldn’t you agree that Mein Kampf was more than just words?

Just to follow on from what I said above, to the english teachers here saying "English teacher here - words are just words - 12 year olds can read anything" - take for example literature produced by paedophiles to try to circumvent laws around sharing material - explicit details of paedophilia - the sort of thing which would make any normal person feel physically sick - you would be fine with that being read by 12 year olds, teens? This is just one example of what is out there. I hope sincerely you do not think it is okay for teens/tweens. If you do, in all honesty you should not be teaching.

There were lighthearted comments upthread about reading about explicit sex as a teen - I can pretty much guarantee that that part of the childhood was not "beneficial" - it was coped with, perhaps, and reframed in our minds as we matured as not ideal, but not "beneficial".

Yes, not just age appropriate but as a bare minimum I would expect English teachers to be providing books that actually have some literary merit not shite churned out by celebrities.

I have already said this two times, but I am happy to repeat - you really cannot compare Dickens or Emile Zola or Austen and any "difficult" parts in those books with the sort of utter grim gobshite which is being forced on or marketed at children today.

I wouldn't have read those books which you mention to my 8 year old. By the time I read them I was old enough to not find them traumatising and we read them as a class (not on our own) and had teachers who talked through issues, including any dark themes. And remember that all those books you mention are fantastic literature and have many, many positive and brilliant aspects to them - the book being referred to on this thread is not. And the book referred to here is not being discussed in class by the teacher with everyone. None of this is what should be happening has been described the OP. You say "Strong dark emotions through literature is beneficial" - well, in fact they are fine at the age appropriate time and where children are reading around a responsible adult who talks things through and where the literature is itself of value. All of which, it seems, is a rarity at the moment.

What comes across loud and clear on this thread is that some of the teachers do not understand what is and is not age appropriate and are frankly sounding as though they are not responsible adults either.

This is how we can make things better:

The law should be changed to ensure that teachers (and social workers and anyone else involved in making decisions relating to children) get training on child development research.

The law should also be changed to ensure that there are approved books which are of literary value and that strict age limits put on books which need to be strictly adhered to by teachers and input on this should come both from independent academics with expertise around literature and with professionals with expertise around child development and decisions to be made jointly.

Btw, loved your initial response to see if she agrees those were ‘just words’.

There is a huge difference between a work of fiction and a personal attack. One is indeed "just words" and the other is nasty.

defined as manipulating someone into questioning their own perception of reality.

Gaslighting does not have to be in the realms of abuse such as coercive control. Telling someone that they’re wrong would fall under gaslighting depending on the context. To me, a teacher - an adult in a position of authority over a 12yr old - saying "they’re only words" is trying at the very least to have the student question her response to the book. Worse, attempting to shame the child about her response.

In any event, let’s remove the word ‘gaslighting’ from my comment and consider the bigger picture.

There was an opportunity for the teacher to have a conversation about the girl’s feelings and thoughts about the book, but she didn’t. Just shut the child down and said ‘they’re just words’. It seems as though you might feel there’s nothing wrong with that response. I do. So we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Some books are meant to make us uncomfortable in order to get across uncomfortable truths. Is it one of those? If so, it’s done its job so to speak and that in itself would make it ‘successful’ in literary terms. I wouldn’t act like a nut job with the school if this is the case.

Oh my god, some people really need to learn better comprehension skills.

To be honest I think we should always encourage young girls to speak up when they feel uncomfortable and I think fair play to the op for supporting her daughter.

Yeah, was originally horrified that crap churned out by celebs was being used as set material for English but now on a re read I see the DD was allowed to choose a different book.

I think the teacher would be right, re: 'they're only words' depending on whether it related to individual word/s in the book, e.g. someone calling a female character a "bitch", but not if it was related to a whole text having a misogynistic meaning or purpose.

Don’t forget the spontaneous human combustion in Bleak House!

I read Germinal as a young adult and was pretty surprised by the graphic grimness. I think it would be absolutely fine for a young teenager to read (I think everything is ok for a young teenager to read) but imo it would definitely upset some of them. It's a book which contains descriptions of extreme poverty/starvation/shocking murder, etc.?

It seems to be crazy mum day on MN today. God help the teachers.

Thanks for the good morning laugh you've given me, OP, over a crap book written by the most boring, vacuous, tedious couple in existence 😂

You know, there's something you could teach your daughter to do, if she feels uncomfortable with the content of a book. Books have a clever little design that allows you to close them. This means you can no longer read the words inside. Perhaps you could suggest this simple fix, so that your daughter is no longer uncomfortable.

I'm so glad I don't teach children any more.

It is literally the opposite. Experiencing strong and dark emotions through literature is beneficial for young people’s mental health as it encourages the exploration of those emotions through a safe space/constructed framework and lets them explore and interrogate things they will have to encounter in real life through the page rather than having to deal with it first in the real world.

There are a lot of studies to evidence this also.

As for “we didn’t read scary or upsetting books” and mentioning Dickens - are you serious?! Pip in Great Expectations is orphanned, abused by his aunt, chased across the moors by an escaped convict, his aunt is brutally murdered, a sociopath grooms him from childhood, he loses everything. David Copperfield is orphaned, abused, sent to work in the glue factory, his mentor goes bankrupt and his wife dies. Or let’s look at that classic Jane Eyre, shall we? Where she is abused, sent to effectively the workhouse, spends the night sleeping next to a dead body, sent to a live with a man who keeps his schizophrenic wife chained in the attic, who escapes repeatedly and attempts murder, then there’s a huge fire in which one of the characters is severely injured? Or even Pride and Prejudice - grooming, underage sex, a conman who preys on young women…..

The classics aren’t devoid of scary or upsetting content just because they are old. And nor should books be.

Crying at a book is not a bad thing though - it can be very cathartic. And again, books about people dying from AIDS are really important - both in terms of demystifying and destigmatising the condition and also in reminding the reader of the importance of safe sex/not sharing needles/the corruption of the system in terms of blood products being a purchasable commodity.

Absolutely
Telling someone they might be wrong is not gaslighting and it pretty much diminishes the actual abuse gaslighting is

I am guessing you are quite a bit older than me, I am 49 and I most certainly read “scary” and “upsetting” literature including crime, death and sex. I never read Austen or Dickens at school, but did read Steinbeck, Hart Snider, Lee among others. I also vividly remember a poem on the syllabus which was - incredibly- written by a 15-year-old girl - I’ve just found it online now, it’s The Backslappers by Jenny Mitchell. I was able to find it as I recalled most of one stanza which has stuck with me all these years. It’s a brutal and unflinching piece about teenage sex, male attitudes and coercion which has enormous impact and I remember the discussions in class which I can see now were so valuable even if uncomfortable.

Outside of school I read King and Laymon and when I was about eight one of my favourite books was an anthology of true crime and disasters which my dad found in someone’s bin (he was a dustman). I read about a nightclub fire, a shark attack, the Moors Murders, James Hanratty.

I’ve always had very robust mental health.

Nailed it.

Oh my god, people really need to learn what gaslighting is.

Books don't have age ratings the way films do. They may have content guidance on the book and they are generally grouped by age range but that's not a hard and fast rule, it's just a suggestion.

Books will often challenge us, they make us question our own lives, morals, values, experiences... trying to address that with her is better than sheltering her

You'd be better asking the tutor/teacher what their version of the conversation was. It's entirely possible the teacher said "they are only words" as part of a bigger explanation or said something your DD took as "it's only words". Something like "it can be distressing sometimes, the things we read. But it's important to remember that they are only words, words which create pictures in our heads but still just words. Nothing which can harm you."

Also: got some great recommendations from this thread now. Thanks everyone!

What a bloody fuss.

I don't fear my emotions or crying, so I have no issue with reading upsetting books.

@crazymomma93

OP, I was just wondering whether they were any downsides to your daughter not reading the book.

Is it a book the whole class is reading and discussing? Do they have to do homework relating to the book and are there exams on the year's work in the summer in which there would be a question on it?