Someone spreading race hate. Report to employer?

Brilliant post

This is an excellent post.

The trouble is that we are facing a new type of totalitarianism now. If someone finds speech 'hateful', they have the right to stop it. On the face of it, it might seem impossible to find fault with that, but you only have to try a thought experiment on a type of speech that some people find 'hateful' and others don't, to see that it is fraught with problems

You also don't have to assume that all racism, sexism etc leads to death camps. Yes, fascism saw a lot of people turn a blind eye to negative opinions of Jews and others. That was the start. But the fascists were able to go further and further into action against the groups they despised, because they shut down all opposition. Totalitarian regimes always shut down speech because it is 'dangerous' or 'harmful' and that limits our ability to oppose them. So free speech goes alongside anti-racism as a key weapon against discriminatory action. Of course, if you allow free speech you have to allow all kinds of speech, including speech you disagree with, don't like or find 'hateful'. But if it is all out in the open, we can see it and challenge it.

If you outlaw certain types of speech, who decides what is outlawed and what isn't? The line in law at the moment is a good one I think: say what you like, but don't incite violence. Surely if we hold to this line we have the best of both worlds: the benefits of free speech, in which all ideas can be freely discussed and challenged; and a clear red line beyond which we cannot cross, to prevent the slippage from speech to action seen so many times in history.

They aren't spreading anything, they are expressing their views on social
Media and people can choose to agree, disagree, report and or block.

The trouble is, what are you actually being sacked for? Say I put a post up that said there needs to be an inquiry into Muslim Pakistani grooming gangs. Someone writes to my employer and says that only in unreliable company would employ someone so racist, they’re going to spread this all over social media (they might have got their friends to also write in)

The company looks at my employment contract that says I can’t post anything that brings the company into disrepute. they don’t know if what i said was racist. But they know I’ve done something that because of others reactions (beyond my control) the company’s reputation is at risk so they sack me. Now was I being racist?

We have to be very careful now about comments being shut down through accusations like this. It is dangerous. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Note that I have never suggested doing nothing - I have stated that the correct response is to inform the police if you think a crime is being committed - that is not doing nothing.

The road to fascism might be lined with people telling you you’re overreacting- but fascism itself is full of people overreacting to situations and using it as an excuse to persecute others. Those others might indeed be people exercising freedom of speech that certain other groups don’t like (I’ll use my previous example of TRAs -who adore the phrase you used - killing peoples careers for believing in biological reality)

If you're being racist in the opinion of the company you work for, you should be sacked and you'll deserve it. Someone highlighting something they think is racist to the company is never in the wrong.

Good people should pursue all routes to disrupt racists' lives.

Funnily enough I was on Twitter at lunch time and saw a post with the quote "The road to fascism is lined with people telling you to stop overreacting", which I think is an excellent way to put it

Bit sockpuppet-y.

No, I won't let people voice their opinions, if their opinion is that all disabled people should be dead. I mean, they can voice that as much as they want, but they shouldn't be surprised when there are consequences.

It's hardly a lynch mob is it? And frankly, I disagree. Too much discrimination still exists precisely because nobody ever does anything about it. Marginalised people have a voice now and some people obviously don't like that.

Where did I say it should be ignored? Once again you’re reading what you want to see in order to construct an argument against it. What I have said it quite the contrary, I have stated that if a person thinks a crime has been committed the proper thing to do is contact the police. What I don’t want to see is lynch mobs roaming round deciding who should have their livelihoods threatened because this sets a very dangerous dystopian precedent.

In your opinion. However many people claim saying men cannot be women is harmful and hateful and untrue. People have lost their jobs for that and been barred from social media.

I personally think live and let live. Stop acting like the Stasi and let people voice their opinions even if you disagree

If their downfall impacts those around them, it is nobodies fault but their own.
Posting hate online absolutely does cause harm. And you think it should be ignored just in case it might cause second hand harm. Some pretty twisted logic.

But many trans people and their supporters would define the statement in your first paragraph transphobic and pure hate speech.

i have always agreed with you (as you will note from my previous comments) that I personally find the comments you report that person made despicable. I have just stated it is equally wrong to report someone to their employer, especially to delight in their downfall without any care about what happens to the innocent people round them , the proper course of action is to report to the police.

But normally the phrase used is something along the lines of “not posting anything on social media likely to bring the company on to o disrepute” or similar. Now it would be possible to argue that someone complaining they are horrified that the company’s employee saying x is still employed and this has brought the company into disrepute (a couple of there might write in the same). Now arguably that employee has done nothing other than share an opinion.(and be a bit stupid allowing the link to their employer).

The original post here talks about “race hate” this is a specific crime.

The proper and moral way to deal with this is through the legal system. No doubt if that person is convicted they will quite rightly lose their job.

If it’s not a crime it is someone’s personal opinion. There’s lots of threads on here (and elsewhere) discussing whether “Muslim Pakistani grooming gang” is racist or Islamaphobic.

No one should be sacked because of someone’s personal opinion(I appreciate there are degrees- but again subjective) the legal route is the correct one.

Saying that a woman is an adult human female is a scientific fact. It's also just a statement and isn't hateful in any way.

Saying that disabled people are a burden on society, have no value to anyone, should all be culled, and you should go and kill yourself so your husband and children are free, is hateful.

What the person said/posted would have to have contravened a policy that the company has in place in order for them to be sacked. If not then the employer leaves themselves open to tribunal. If you don't want sacked, then don't break company policies.

Racists should be called out and disrupted in any way possible. If they lose their job then maybe they'll learn the error of their ways before they end up like those idiots sitting in jail now for trying to burn hotels down etc. It's a slippery slope

Actually, no it’s not the same at all. When you report them to their employer, you are saying someone has said something I don’t agree with, you are creating a problem by your subjective reaction. The fact you find it objectionable is a measure that will be used by the employer.

On the other hand, if you go to the police, they will measure what is being said as to whether they consider a crime is committed, it will then go to the CPS to decide if it is in the public interest to go to court. If it goes to court that individual will be judged against the agreed laws of the country on an objective basis.

Not the same thing at all.

So take another point.

If someone posts “women are adult human females” on social media. Is this objectionable? Most people would say not. Yet some people would deem this offensive so report that person to their employer. That employer thinks “we these people find it objectionable so that brings us into disrepute” therefore we will sack that person - there might well have been a concerted effort to damage that person by a group of TRAs because that person was gender critical. Therefore, they decided to complain en masse. This is a system open to abuse. Report it to the police and they can use proper methods to ensure no crime has been committed.

im not sure why people can’t see the issue.

Reporting them to their employer is the same as reporting them to the police.

The police/employer will investigate then take whatever action they deem necessary - they're the ones acting as 'judge and jury', not the person reporting it (the witness)

The proper thing to do with racists is to make them feel the consequences of their actions

Yes report for sure

You see, I don’t agree with reporting someone to their employer. The proper thing to do in such situations is to report any suspicions of a crime to the police.

Im shocked at the number of people who think they can act as judge and jury rather than go through proper legal channels

Can't decide if I'm shocked or not shocked at the amount of people effectively saying "Don't report the racist, mind your own business"

That sort of mindset is what gave us the Nazis 100 years ago, and seems to be repeating itself now (particularly in the USA). "It's not that bad, ignore it, mind your own business...." as the sort of things deemed acceptable slowly creep towards more and more hateful rhetoric because people keep getting away with it.

Racists should be shut down in any way possible at every available opportunity.

But they accused me of posting something I didn’t write.

Why should they not be punished? I'd be going to the police as well.
Inciting hate and racism is wrong and illegal. If they actually cared about their lives, jobs and family, they wouldn't air it out in public. They clearly aren't looking after anyone's best interests.

Report op. Crimes like this can be stopped and sentenced/fined. The more people that stand up against race hate and Islamaphobia the better.

They haven't made a mistake. Supporting people who hate others is not a good look, though.

I've reported your post to Mumsnet, as you seem to be descending into chaotic ramblings.

Ah, another “I’m not responsible to anyone” maybe we should speak with your customers/clients about how you refuse am to accept you’ve made a mistake, double down on your mistake when it’s pointed out, then try and gaslight people and tell them to back off when they ask for an apology. Not someone I’d want to give my custom to

I'm self employed. And I've made no "false accusations". I suggest you reread your own posts with a critical lens and drop the pathetic "apology" nonsense. Bow out if you've nothing constructive to add beyond protect the hate speakers.