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AIBU?

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AIBU that the system is leaving a whole group of children behind.

273 replies

Sendhelp20 · 19/01/2025 07:43

I know this will be down to location to but wow my mind is blown. We are in the middle of being allocated a secondary school for DD11 and there doesn’t seem to be a school that exists for her 🤣( I should not laugh but If I don’t I will cry )

she is academic although not advance and has gaps in her learning which does mean she is mildly behind this is due to missing 3 and half years of primary school.

all the schools consulted in a radius of 1 hour of our home which including

Sen schools - with different specialities
mainstream schools with units
and mainstreams have all come back
they can’t meet her needs

some she is “too academic “
others she is too complex

so now they are suggesting a mixture of home tutoring / online education but she wants to go to school 😭

where are the children who are inbetween going 😭😭

OP posts:
Sendhelp20 · 19/01/2025 21:09

Icedlatteplease · 19/01/2025 21:07

Did they test short to long term memory?

The literacy aspects of your DD profile scream Dyslexia, which is why I'm asking if it was specifically tested for. Counter that is your DD'S times tables ability, but I'm wondering if thats script learning or genuine utilisation

her reading is great
she is behind in the writing aspect because initially in her primary school she didn’t have access to things she needed to implement writing.
she can not physically write with her hands and was left along time not participating as well as she could because she couldn’t so she fell behind on the literacy skills.
once we had other things in place like a programme on the laptop etc she has made strides but it’s catch up
but for example she has gone from reception level in year 4 to year 4 level in year 6.

OP posts:
Icedlatteplease · 19/01/2025 21:07

Sendhelp20 · 19/01/2025 20:31

Ed psych due bit suggest school was not appropriate in the slightest
her profile in the centiles was spikey
so there was suggestions on how she may learn in terms of processing
her weaknesses and her strengths
spoke about what she would need in terms of transition and also GCSEs

Did they test short to long term memory?

The literacy aspects of your DD profile scream Dyslexia, which is why I'm asking if it was specifically tested for. Counter that is your DD'S times tables ability, but I'm wondering if thats script learning or genuine utilisation

Sendhelp20 · 19/01/2025 21:07

Icedlatteplease · 19/01/2025 21:02

But (and i know this is very very harsh) she's still testing delayed. With provision that we know works incredibly incredibly well at primary. So academically no she hasn't thrived. You have testing that shows a mainstream ability child who is not testing mainstream attainment. Demonstratably currently, and with the best will in the world, you do not have a regime that has succeeded academically.

If your goal is the best education for your or child why would you continue with an academic provision that has failed especially into an environment where it has, when researched, shown to be a very poor secondary intervention.

That quite aside from talking to those who've done it or taught it who will tell you at secondary your one to one will be nicked. Most of the very many schools I've supplied at the "one to one" couldn't tell me who they were there to support (even when I could without even looking at the SEN register). I had to threaten DS' one to one with judicial review to reduce the frequency hes one to one was knicked and tgat was when there was an active documented safeguarding risk. At any exam time they will be scribing in the exam halls because schools do not have the staffing.

Your DD may have thrived socially and personally and that is a different matter. That's not to say it wasn't an incredible place for you DD at primary. But secondary is a very very different place from primary school. Your children and the children around her will be very different. The timetable is harder and the expectations are harsh. You stand in a hall during the exit from assembly or during a fire drill (which a 5 minute early card wont alter) and you pretty soon realise how hostile an environment a secondary school really is.

She absolutely did progress academically ! 100 percent more during school than she did say during shielding.
this is why provisions exist for children who have additional needs
she has a brain injury - she’s had 2 and yet predicted in maths the same as her peers at sat levels which yes required extra support
So yes she has difficulties but doesn’t mean she isn’t suited to a school education.
I personally think considering the education system has done a great job with her up to this point and we won’t know how secondary school will go until we give it a try and see what doesn’t work and what does.

OP posts:
Icedlatteplease · 19/01/2025 21:02

Sendhelp20 · 19/01/2025 20:33

Because she thrives at school in the right setting it with the right support, enjoys school and she is eager to attend to school so why would it not be a place that she should attend ?

But (and i know this is very very harsh) she's still testing delayed. With provision that we know works incredibly incredibly well at primary. So academically no she hasn't thrived. You have testing that shows a mainstream ability child who is not testing mainstream attainment. Demonstratably currently, and with the best will in the world, you do not have a regime that has succeeded academically.

If your goal is the best education for your or child why would you continue with an academic provision that has failed especially into an environment where it has, when researched, shown to be a very poor secondary intervention.

That quite aside from talking to those who've done it or taught it who will tell you at secondary your one to one will be nicked. Most of the very many schools I've supplied at the "one to one" couldn't tell me who they were there to support (even when I could without even looking at the SEN register). I had to threaten DS' one to one with judicial review to reduce the frequency hes one to one was knicked and tgat was when there was an active documented safeguarding risk. At any exam time they will be scribing in the exam halls because schools do not have the staffing.

Your DD may have thrived socially and personally and that is a different matter. That's not to say it wasn't an incredible place for you DD at primary. But secondary is a very very different place from primary school. Your children and the children around her will be very different. The timetable is harder and the expectations are harsh. You stand in a hall during the exit from assembly or during a fire drill (which a 5 minute early card wont alter) and you pretty soon realise how hostile an environment a secondary school really is.

Icedlatteplease · 19/01/2025 20:43

Sendhelp20 · 19/01/2025 20:14

do you genuinely think every child in the country who hasn’t got a school placement because needs unmet means that’s because they shouldn’t be in school or because of the lack of funding and sen provisions ?

oh an some assesses done by the ed Pysch when she saw her in school

has percentages centiles on things
like processing information
visual perception etc

Edited

I simply do not believe education only happens in a school environment. Ds' lovely SLT told me at 4 "you know education doesn't necessarily mean school" it took me another 7 years before I understood

I don't believe sensitive, vulnerable gentle children with sensory and physical needs do well in a mainstream environment full stop.

I believe we tell the lie that children must be in school for education way too much. The rapid growth of Eotas packages is because they work. For the right child.

So no I don't believe that every out of child shouldn't be at a school, of some description.

But I simply don't see how any school can educate a child who can only attend on average 60% of the time. They can give your child a mainstream experience, kinda. And that might he what you want. Hence me asking what you want for you child. But they cannot educate your child.

If you want education you need a package that works around your child not vice versa.

Sendhelp20 · 19/01/2025 20:33

Icedlatteplease · 19/01/2025 20:24

Now we are getting somewhere.

So she tested average ability in the cognitive testing from the development centre? What did the ed physc put the variation between cognition and performance down to? How was the short and long term memory when tested? When she recites times tables does she also apply them? Can you change the order and she still do them? What did the OT say about fatigue and wellness? Did OT do sensory assesment and scoring? Is it receptive speech and language difficulties or just receptive.

And back to the other question. Why do you believe she will benefit from being in a school environment?

Because she thrives at school in the right setting it with the right support, enjoys school and she is eager to attend to school so why would it not be a place that she should attend ?

OP posts:
Sendhelp20 · 19/01/2025 20:31

Ed psych due bit suggest school was not appropriate in the slightest
her profile in the centiles was spikey
so there was suggestions on how she may learn in terms of processing
her weaknesses and her strengths
spoke about what she would need in terms of transition and also GCSEs

OP posts:
Icedlatteplease · 19/01/2025 20:24

Sendhelp20 · 19/01/2025 20:12

She has the usual schools tests and a cognitive test via the development centre, abc movement test via OT and her schools reports and ed psych evaluation of her in school.

Now we are getting somewhere.

So she tested average ability in the cognitive testing from the development centre? What did the ed physc put the variation between cognition and performance down to? How was the short and long term memory when tested? When she recites times tables does she also apply them? Can you change the order and she still do them? What did the OT say about fatigue and wellness? Did OT do sensory assesment and scoring? Is it receptive speech and language difficulties or just receptive.

And back to the other question. Why do you believe she will benefit from being in a school environment?

Sendhelp20 · 19/01/2025 20:21

Icedlatteplease · 19/01/2025 20:09

@BrightYellowTrain

Last time i was in tribunal the wait was something ridiculous over a year. We were entirely out of education at the time!!! That was only a couple of years ago and would have been phase transition into Alevels (if he hadn't been too ill for GCSe)

A year for private Ed psych, Although OT was quicker.

Edited

Ah see we were lucky she needed an hoisted ed psych and it was given with in 3 weeks of us requiring it from LA.

OP posts:
BrightYellowTrain · 19/01/2025 20:16

As I said, phase transfer appeals are prioritised. OP would not be waiting well over a year. Some will not be settled by September but they will not be over a year away. And secondary phase transfer will be able to appeal before post 16 transfer since the deadlines are different.

Sendhelp20 · 19/01/2025 20:14

Icedlatteplease · 19/01/2025 19:35

I don’t Believe at all that she wouldn’t benefit from a school and being a part of a school

Why?

You now have multiple schools advising they cannot meet need. School is presumably not recommended by the Ed psych.

We are very indoctrinated in this country to belive the only way you can learn and socialise is within a school environment.

There are many many shapes school, education and schooling can take.

do you genuinely think every child in the country who hasn’t got a school placement because needs unmet means that’s because they shouldn’t be in school or because of the lack of funding and sen provisions ?

oh an some assesses done by the ed Pysch when she saw her in school

has percentages centiles on things
like processing information
visual perception etc

OP posts:
Sendhelp20 · 19/01/2025 20:12

Icedlatteplease · 19/01/2025 19:39

Did they specifically cognitive and dyslexia test. I genuinely don't understand how they can define average ability if they haven't tested.

She has the usual schools tests and a cognitive test via the development centre, abc movement test via OT and her schools reports and ed psych evaluation of her in school.

OP posts:
Icedlatteplease · 19/01/2025 20:09

@BrightYellowTrain

Last time i was in tribunal the wait was something ridiculous over a year. We were entirely out of education at the time!!! That was only a couple of years ago and would have been phase transition into Alevels (if he hadn't been too ill for GCSe)

A year for private Ed psych, Although OT was quicker.

Hankunamatata · 19/01/2025 19:57

From your description I can see why mainstream would say her needs are too complex. I know my kids secondary school is struggling to recruit and retain TAs as its badly paid (and tbh teens suck at times)

As mentioned in my previous post I would imagine the mainstreams wouldn't be able to meet her needs if she needs a scribe etc as they can't always guarantee TA cover to help her.

Hankunamatata · 19/01/2025 19:54

Hi op.
Iv 2 in mainstream secondary eith 1:1 TA. The only thing I would be wary of is that in our area TA cover is patchy at times. So if their TA is sick they don't have a TA. If the TA needs time off there's no cover. That would be my concern with mainstream.

BrightYellowTrain · 19/01/2025 19:54

OP still has time to challenge any decision about the placement for secondary. It doesn’t even sound like the LA has finalised the amended phase transfer EHCP yet. When they do, which they must do by the 15th Feb, she will get the right of appeal and phase transfer appeals are prioritised.

Icedlatteplease · 19/01/2025 19:50

BrightYellowTrain · 19/01/2025 19:40

If DD has the needs you describe, the therapies you mention are included in F don’t sound sufficient. You make no mention of any mental health therapies to support DD’s anxiety and 6 sessions a year of OT (does this include SIOT), SALT and physio are not sufficient.

I have the horrible feeling the the LEA have convinced the OP that the provision is exceptional knowing full well the OP isn't going (and doesn't have time now) to challenge it.

The big sign/impact is usually the level of cognitive testing in the Ed psych report.

They have however suggested the most obvious choice for education. So they are not entirely the villans of the piece for a change.

BrightYellowTrain · 19/01/2025 19:40

If DD has the needs you describe, the therapies you mention are included in F don’t sound sufficient. You make no mention of any mental health therapies to support DD’s anxiety and 6 sessions a year of OT (does this include SIOT), SALT and physio are not sufficient.

Icedlatteplease · 19/01/2025 19:39

Did they specifically cognitive and dyslexia test. I genuinely don't understand how they can define average ability if they haven't tested.

Icedlatteplease · 19/01/2025 19:35

I don’t Believe at all that she wouldn’t benefit from a school and being a part of a school

Why?

You now have multiple schools advising they cannot meet need. School is presumably not recommended by the Ed psych.

We are very indoctrinated in this country to belive the only way you can learn and socialise is within a school environment.

There are many many shapes school, education and schooling can take.

Sendhelp20 · 19/01/2025 19:28

Icedlatteplease · 19/01/2025 19:01

Cognitive testing? Dyslexia/Dyscalcula testing? How is the ed psych recommending overcoming her barriers to learning

She doesn’t have dyslexia etc
she has speech delay which has impacted her abilities in certain areas, she poor fine and gross motor skills which has effected her ability in some areas mainly literacy has been most effected but she is a fluent reader.
she has severe anxiety sensory needs which impacts her learning in large classrooms she can’t physically write with her hands but dictation doesn’t work because her speech delays so she requires a scribe.

I don’t Believe at all that she wouldn’t benefit from a school and being apart of a school even if she has time off when needed. She will have her tutor for 2 hours to Implement the work that is being done.

OP posts:
Icedlatteplease · 19/01/2025 19:01

Sendhelp20 · 19/01/2025 18:52

she has a updated ed Pysch, has a very good OT and SLT.

yes her attendance is a problem but no adaptions in school is going to unfortunately make that better she has a life threatening disease which unfortunately needs treatments.

in terms of her EHCP there is a lot of cognitive and learning issues in there, including her speech and development delays, that she can’t hands a lot of noise / sensory issues. Her literacy skills.
her commincation skills, the need for a scriber and equipment such as specialist chair / laptop etc

Cognitive testing? Dyslexia/Dyscalcula testing? How is the ed psych recommending overcoming her barriers to learning

Icedlatteplease · 19/01/2025 18:58

Sendhelp20 · 19/01/2025 18:52

she has a updated ed Pysch, has a very good OT and SLT.

yes her attendance is a problem but no adaptions in school is going to unfortunately make that better she has a life threatening disease which unfortunately needs treatments.

in terms of her EHCP there is a lot of cognitive and learning issues in there, including her speech and development delays, that she can’t hands a lot of noise / sensory issues. Her literacy skills.
her commincation skills, the need for a scriber and equipment such as specialist chair / laptop etc

No but schooling doesn't necessarily have to happen in a school environment. For a child who can't attend a school environment 40% of the time, it's logical to consider an education she CAN access a higher percent of the time.

Every schooling option is a compromise for children within the most complex needs.

Icedlatteplease · 19/01/2025 18:54

In fact actually
her wellbeing and happiness is far more valuable than her grades but that is not her issue.

Ok so without labouring the point to much, was the SEN school that your DD liked the one with the too low peer group?

If actually the absence rate masks greater challenges to academic performance that are currently apparent it may actually be that the cohort is not incompatible and the best option for your DDs happiness is actually maybe that one, not the best one academically but the one that makes your child happiest. Then you would want to be approaching the school, getting eyes on the peer group itself (too low cohort can be Byford for severe ASD) and asking the principal what it was about the EHCP that was a problem.

But so so much is dependent on how much testing has been possible with your DD and they skill set of the LEA's chosen ed psych

Sendhelp20 · 19/01/2025 18:52

Icedlatteplease · 19/01/2025 18:32

Hmmmm...

What does your Ed psych say about placement, barriers to learning and did they complete any cognitive testing?

My point is your child's primary area of need, at least superficially, seems to be about wellness to learn and non of the provision you have mentioned addresses that.

You say you know what a successful education looks like but I'm thinking much more broadly.

If academic is the main criteria it a simple fact No child with 50-60% attendance will keep up with their peers in either mainstream or SEN. With the best will in the world and a school that puts into place everything you are going to be working really hard to catch up anything missed. At 80%ish DS was struggling. There's a lot of people arguing ma can succeed, the best school in the world cannot succed if you are not there.

Yes you can do things to improve attendance which frankly is why the LEA are talking about Eotas.

The reason they are suggesting online is it because it offers a continuity of education whether your child can physically make it to school or not, is at home or hospital. Same tutors and continuity of routine which has huge benefits. That is assuming your child is physically still able to access schooling when ill and that that any time in hospital not to intense.

Tutors will work better if actually you have a child that has to drop everything when ill. Your child isn't missing learning because the tutor picks up the pieces whenever your child is ready again.
They can fit around extensive therapy provision and because they are working one-on-one with your child can tailor the learning to your child's level.

In both cases any assistive interventions (seating, laptop, touch typing, writing slope, wheelchiar) can be put into place without comment, therefore helping your child to access academics with less fatigue. Which you haven't mentioned l, explicitly but I would expect are in there as you mentioned equipment.

So what is a successful education? Is it one in which your child has best chance of keeping up with her peers? Is it one where they see their friends everyday? These are not necessarily the same education FOR YOUR CHILD.

Do bear in mind primary and secondary are very very different. What works in primary is not the same as what works in secondary. We know one to one is a fantastic intervention at primary.

I do worry in your case absence is actually the more superficial problem that maybe is masking other issues. It's easy with LEA professionals that they often fit what provision they can provide to the child as opposed to looking child out. In doing so they can spectacularly miss stuff.

Do consider if you can afford it getting private Ed psych and, in your case, OT. If the Ed psych is actually decent and does contain cognitive testing + dyslexia + dyscalcula, then is more economic just to get OT. Of course you are probably impossible to do this before transition now but if I was you I'd definitely consider it. If your reports are GOSH / evelina or another such centre of excellence, or the LEA has engaged private companies because the nhs therapy service lists are too great in your area, there's a higher chance that the above is tosh.

she has a updated ed Pysch, has a very good OT and SLT.

yes her attendance is a problem but no adaptions in school is going to unfortunately make that better she has a life threatening disease which unfortunately needs treatments.

in terms of her EHCP there is a lot of cognitive and learning issues in there, including her speech and development delays, that she can’t hands a lot of noise / sensory issues. Her literacy skills.
her commincation skills, the need for a scriber and equipment such as specialist chair / laptop etc

OP posts: