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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think car seat safety groups on Facebook are absolutely mental!

138 replies

Busby88 · 18/01/2025 22:54

Not sure if many MN members are part of some of the car seat safety groups on Facebook but honestly can’t believe what a mad population they are (and I know MN can also be pretty bonkers!)

Joined for advice on high backed boosters as want to put my almost 5yo in one and all it is is comments about how they should still be rear facing. Seen comments similar aimed at people with almost six year olds looking to forward face.

I completely get the safety aspect and how much safer rear facing is, I really do. And will be rear facing my 4yo as long as possible in my car, but he’s reached the 18kg limit in the seat we have for grandparents to us and it would be nice to just be able to get some advice without just being yelled at for being unsafe.

Honestly can’t believe the negativity and unhelpfulness aimed at people who are even considering forward facing before the age of 6.

OP posts:
DinosaurMunch · 19/01/2025 20:49

AgeGapBbe · 19/01/2025 18:15

This isn’t true I’m afraid. So long as the car is travelling forwards, rear facing is always safer. The only time it wouldn’t be would be if it was reversing at speed into something.

See I don't think that can be right. The forces are a result of the relative speeds and directions - not the absolute speeds and directions. Physics doesn't know if one car is stopped and the other doing 30 into the back of it or one car doing 30 and the other 60 into the back of it. Can anyone explain this to me?

SunnyRainbow293 · 19/01/2025 20:45

I planned to rear face my lo for as long as he would tolerate but it became unsafe as he could unclip his harness so I purchased the cybex car seat which has no harness, instead it has a big guard that holds them in like a ride! It claims its safer than fallword facing with a harness car seat

DinosaurMunch · 19/01/2025 20:43

JerrySprinter · 19/01/2025 20:35

Sorry to derail, my kids are late teens now.
But where to the legs of a 4/5 yo child go if rear facing? Up the back of the seat?? I can't picture it!

My 5 year old's seat has space in front where she can put her feet - just like a normal chair. The erf seats are quite upright and designed for better leg room.

There's not a lot of leg room for the front seat passenger though.

JerrySprinter · 19/01/2025 20:42

lochmaree · 19/01/2025 20:39

My relatively tall 5yo often crosses his, or puts one either side of his seat. He doesn't complain about his legs, other than on very long journeys (5+ hrs) will say he gets a sore bum, which I'm guessing would happen regardless of direction.

That seems really uncomfortable! Maybe it's because I'm old!

florafoxtrot · 19/01/2025 20:40

Agreed. I’ve been made to feel really quite shit on occasion by others when it comes to FF vs RF. I fully understand the advantages of ERF but cleaning up a spewy car seat every week isn’t really much fun either.

lochmaree · 19/01/2025 20:39

JerrySprinter · 19/01/2025 20:35

Sorry to derail, my kids are late teens now.
But where to the legs of a 4/5 yo child go if rear facing? Up the back of the seat?? I can't picture it!

My relatively tall 5yo often crosses his, or puts one either side of his seat. He doesn't complain about his legs, other than on very long journeys (5+ hrs) will say he gets a sore bum, which I'm guessing would happen regardless of direction.

JerrySprinter · 19/01/2025 20:35

Sorry to derail, my kids are late teens now.
But where to the legs of a 4/5 yo child go if rear facing? Up the back of the seat?? I can't picture it!

DinosaurMunch · 19/01/2025 20:32

GrazeConcern · 19/01/2025 13:06

Agree, the groups lack nuance and logic. And again, I kept mine rear facing as long as I could (4 and 2.5). The groups thrive on bullying and ignoring nuance. For instance it’s a gradual sliding scale on the benefits - it is for instance less risky to forward face a 2.5 year old than a 9 month old (which used to be the standard age for it), just as it’s less risky again to forward face a 3 year old than a 2.5 year old. By 4, the risk is the same as it is for anyone in the car, although I accept that in most collisions rear facing would be better for all involved. That said, the type of driving makes a difference too - I’m sure I read that in a rear end shunt rear facing actually increases the likelihood of whiplash.

You're unlikely to be a high speed rear shunt collision though...

DinosaurMunch · 19/01/2025 20:31

User79853257976 · 19/01/2025 00:31

Not sure if anyone has al explained this to you, but it’s the harness that’s dangerous in the ff position. Look up neck loads etc. It is safest for them to rf until they are plenty big enough to use a hbb.

There's no evidence that a harness is more dangerous than a seatbelt for a 4 year old. Studies are equivocal. There is some movement in the seat so it's not just the harness itself.

The most important thing is that the child is sitting properly in the seat which is arguably more likely in a harness seat for a 4 year old.

Either way, children in any car seat used within its instructions are statistically very safe in an accident

lochmaree · 19/01/2025 20:21

Yes those groups are awful, and I still RF my 5yo. But he turned FF in the childminders card at 4.5yo. I dared not ask for advice on the best HBB for him (needed a very narrow one that puzzled well).

lanthanum · 19/01/2025 19:51

Somuchgoo · 19/01/2025 19:00

I remember asking a question about research/evidence so I could make the best decision for my child. All I got was that she should be RF, even though for various reasons it's not possible.

She wasn't a 13 month old. She was FIVE!
(I'm trying to with it whether harnessed FF is safer than HBB for a older but tiny child that's 14.8kg, when the recommended minimum weight for HBB is 18kg).

They are horribly aggressive and bullying groups, especially the one lead by Gabi mentioned upthread.

Ps: Its not as clear cut as HBB better than FF due to neck load as mentioned earlier. 5 point harnesses are safer overall hence why F1 drivers use them etc.

Try RoSPA for advice. They were great when i was asking for advice about DD in (shock horror) taxis without a car seat. (They said to ask for a wheelchair accessible one, and put the pram at right angles to the direction of motion. We didn't have a car. We did get a car seat later on, but chose on the basis of the one the shop said fitted in the maximum number of different cars.)

GrazeConcern · 19/01/2025 19:14

@AgeGapBbe I didn’t say it wasn’t safer - a whiplash injury is a fairly ‘safe’ injury to have in the scale of things so it being more likely doesn’t necessarily make the seat less safe. It might be a consideration though if 100% of your driving is pootling about town.

Somuchgoo · 19/01/2025 19:00

I remember asking a question about research/evidence so I could make the best decision for my child. All I got was that she should be RF, even though for various reasons it's not possible.

She wasn't a 13 month old. She was FIVE!
(I'm trying to with it whether harnessed FF is safer than HBB for a older but tiny child that's 14.8kg, when the recommended minimum weight for HBB is 18kg).

They are horribly aggressive and bullying groups, especially the one lead by Gabi mentioned upthread.

Ps: Its not as clear cut as HBB better than FF due to neck load as mentioned earlier. 5 point harnesses are safer overall hence why F1 drivers use them etc.

Cheepcheepcheep · 19/01/2025 18:52

grumpytoddler1 · 19/01/2025 13:40

I don't know about anyone else, but my driving is considerably safer when my 2.5 year old is not vomiting everywhere and screaming his head off, while his brother screams, 'muummyy, he's been sick and it stinks!!!' I think on balance preventing an actual accident is probably better for my children's safety than having the accident and the car seat being safer.

This. I forward faced my 18mo after I was in the car once and he vomited (it happened a lot, we minimised car use but sometimes it’s unavoidable) and he was choking on it. I only realised when my DD told me ‘he can’t breathe’ and I realised I hadn’t heard crying. Pulled over in a panic (not on motorway thank god) and scooped it out of his mouth (oh the joys of parenting).

I don’t love driving in the car with him FF at 2.5 years and tbf we live somewhere where we don’t need to do it loads. But I think the risk of him choking on sick was greater than injury in an accident and I stand by it.

RosaBaby2 · 19/01/2025 18:44

I agree with everything those nutters say difference is some people just know not to bother trying 😂

tiddlerislate · 19/01/2025 18:43

Honestly, in RL I don’t know any children who RFd after two and most before that.

I think in the majority of cases the child starts vocally objecting. That’s definitely what happened with us!

ElsaLion · 19/01/2025 18:38

You are definitely NBU, both my DC faced forwards from the age of 18 months - DC1 was the height of a three year old (and is now as tall and heavy as a six year old, at the age of 3.5) and vomited on every journey when he was rear facing. DC2 was very much the same. Both are strapped in securely and safely. Sometimes you have to do what is best for your (child's) personal circumstances.

YouAgainDamnIt · 19/01/2025 18:36

I’m with you. My ds was 5’10 by 12 years old and had been out of a car seat for almost two years as his head was on the ceiling but apparently I was making it up. Grin

Sinkintotheswamp · 19/01/2025 18:33

They all seem to have large cars. Which doesn't improve everyone else's road safety.
I looked at extended RF seats when mine were little but they wouldn't fit in my car and I couldn't afford a new one.

InJadeHedgehog · 19/01/2025 18:33

I understand that these people are advocating what is safest, the problem comes when people who chose differently get defensive and it spirals.
If you think about it, when lots of us were babies and toddlers we travelled on our mum’s laps or in the carrycot played on the back seat, by the time I was 6 or 7 booster seats were recommended so I had one - but my grandad thought it was pointless.
When I had my young adult son, you had a rear facing first seat and turned at around 9 months. My mum thought this was ridiculous.
By the time I had my youngest you rearfaced until 2 or more so I did - although I, myself, thought it was overkill.
It’s hard when what you can do or did is not the best thing for your child. Knowledge moves on, advice changes, most of us trust parenting advice from our parents so it feels hard when someone else tells you that is wrong.

Twaddlepip · 19/01/2025 18:19

AgeGapBbe · 19/01/2025 18:15

This isn’t true I’m afraid. So long as the car is travelling forwards, rear facing is always safer. The only time it wouldn’t be would be if it was reversing at speed into something.

Or if you were driving.

AgeGapBbe · 19/01/2025 18:15

GrazeConcern · 19/01/2025 13:06

Agree, the groups lack nuance and logic. And again, I kept mine rear facing as long as I could (4 and 2.5). The groups thrive on bullying and ignoring nuance. For instance it’s a gradual sliding scale on the benefits - it is for instance less risky to forward face a 2.5 year old than a 9 month old (which used to be the standard age for it), just as it’s less risky again to forward face a 3 year old than a 2.5 year old. By 4, the risk is the same as it is for anyone in the car, although I accept that in most collisions rear facing would be better for all involved. That said, the type of driving makes a difference too - I’m sure I read that in a rear end shunt rear facing actually increases the likelihood of whiplash.

This isn’t true I’m afraid. So long as the car is travelling forwards, rear facing is always safer. The only time it wouldn’t be would be if it was reversing at speed into something.

Tipperttruck · 19/01/2025 14:54

It does depend on where you drive and when. All our driving is on 20mph roads in the local town. We do 5-15 mins car journeys typically. My DC could easily just be on a bike (and often are) so I wasn't too fussed to switch to forward facing at 5.

BogRollBOGOF · 19/01/2025 14:50

ERF was new, very niche and very expensive when my teenager was a baby. I just didn't have a spare £400 to spend on an online, unseen product that couldn't be viewed in places like Mothercare, Toys R Us or Halfords that may or may not have fitted in my car.

The tone of the groups has not changed since the early 2010s.

It's the lack of nuance that is so frustrating.

The best that money can buy is not an even playing field.

The seat only has its maximum advantages when it's safely installed.

If a seat is going to be humped in and out of various cars, it risks unseen damage. For grandparents cars, it's often better to have a safely installed, well-fitting seat that the grandparents are confident using than a premium product compromised by poor technique.

The seat has to fit in the car. The car needs suitable fixing points. Older, smaller cars have fewer options avaliable.

The child has to be content. A screaming, child significantly increases the risk of an accident from driver distraction. A vomiting child is at a substantial choke risk. I knew a baby turned FF the moment they hit the absolute minimum because they would scream and vomit until they stopped breathing. That was not safer. Parent ended up pulling up randomly all over the place to check baby's welfare when all went silent. That was not safer. Safe driving with a quiet, breathing, FF baby was the better option in that situation! It is quite an extreme case, but I ended up turning DS1 sooner than DS2 because of the hazardous distracting nature of him screaming regardless of mirrors and toys. He was well within the legal range of that point in time, but not today. DS2 was happy until I could no longer fit him in the seat at all.

Fortunately the vast majority of families will not be in situations where the advantages of ERF are put to the test, and those advantages have diminishing returns as the child gets older. The risks of needing the additional benefits of ERF are about speed and driving style. In cases of grandparents and car seats, for occasional use, and local, low speed driving, the risk over the usage of a car seat is already incredibly low.
The sense of statistical nuance in these debates is dire.

In the wider world ERF has increased into toddlerhood with relatively recent changes in legislation, but it's still not standard practice in school age children.

The bigger issue in child/ car safety is the continued use of any age appropriate seat/ booster until it is legally no longer required. I have challenged grandparents ignoring the seat in the rear of the car and driving off from the school run with a toddler on a lap in the front seat 🤦‍♀️. I've also flatly refused to have under-height children of 7-11 yo in my car without a legal seat regardless of what they do at home. I'm the driver and I'm held legally responsible.

The typical dogmatic attitude of ERF discussions inhibits sensible discussion about less than perfect scenarios and prevents people accessing second-best solutions. That makes it more likely that they'll turn to less ideal options. Shame is a poor tool for education.

There's a lot of survivors' bias out there because there are millions of survivors of previous legislation and even pre-seatbelts. Despite the poorer outcomes in the event of a collision, a typical car journey was still a fairly safe thing to do over the course of life. Progress in car safety is of course a good thing, but it still needs some perspective about risk level (and yes, of course I'm glad that my children never repeated a slide into the foowell during abrupt braking like I remember)

Similar purity spiral echo chambers used to arise in BLW and babywearing groups (probably still do!)

Never be too zealous about parenting standards... the world will keep changing and your children/ grandchildren will grow up to be aghast about how cavalier you were against the new standards 😉

Itisjustmyopinion · 19/01/2025 13:56

The irony is that MN is as bad if not worse than FB when it comes to parenting “advice”. I have seen “well you obviously don’t love your child” type posts on here when it is obvious the parent is struggling both financially and emotionally