To think car seat safety groups on Facebook are absolutely mental!

There are some cheap rear facing options ( I think one of the seats is about £100 but couldn’t swear to it), so it isn’t necessary about cost. This is the sort of stuff that the groups were good for- as people’s assumptions don’t help.

I’m feeling annoyed it turns out I wasn’t on the crackers group though! Tempted to join just for the entertainment!

YANBU. Due to our volunteering and current stage of life, DH and I work with many families with pre-schoolers. I haven't yet come across a single child still rear-facing after age 2. And this is in a "well to do" town, where people have money to choose what they think is best and are always onto latest parenting trends, e.g. baby-led weaning, gentle parenting etc. These forums are very much fringe communities!

It's the same with the anti-formula brigade and the anti-sleep training brigade. The people in all of these groups come across as nutters with nothing better to do - puts everyone off and makes the individuals come across as a bit dim tbh! Really remind me of the pro-lifers!

Yes it's like a cult on there! I left in the end

Same with the stats. Also stats can often be read/reported in multiple ways to make the point you want.

I remember looking in pregnancy as I was plus size and there was a scary stat that some danger was 3x more likely in a plus size pregnancy.

This was correct but it took the chance of it happening from 1% in a normal weight pregnancy to 3% in a plus size pregnancy.

So yes 3x more likely ... but still 97% chance of it not happening!

Completely agree with this.

Though of course the ‘but in Scandinavia/Sweden’ brigade will disagree. There is a weird fetishisation of Scandinavia amongst a certain type of middle-class parent. ERF is just one facet of the Montessori, Pickler Triangle, wooden everything, Grimm’s Rainbow cult of parenting.

Excellent post.

Thing is, you could also halve your child's risk of dying in an accident by halving the amount of time they spend in a car.

Yet few people judge parents for putting their children in extra curriculars or private schools that require loads of time in the car. Or for living in rural areas by choice (=commuters, not farmers or doing a genuinely rural job) or straggling out-of-town housing estates, where families'll also constantly be in the car AND the kids will probably have to start driving themselves everywhere as soon as they turn 17, which statistically puts them at high risk. If kids can start driving at 20 or 21 rather than 17, that alone cuts out a very large chunk of the riskiest stuff. Oh, and during your child's babyhood, you will almost certainly end up having to drive your baby and toddler about when you are suffering from sleep deprivation, if you choose to live in an area where there are basically no transport alternatives and nothing in walking distance.

Yet I see little discussion about this on parenting groups. Just car seats and car seats alone seem to inspire this sort of febrile monomania among a certain type of parents. I think people should basically get a car seat and use it correctly, but beyond that point the law of diminishing returns sets in rather quickly.

<Gets into Trust Pilot immediately>

Is this the group called Car Seat Safety UK that has people constantly thanking some woman for sending them a random branded car seat??

I actually think it's fair enough if they want to decline giving advice about front facing before a certain age but I do wish they'd refer to things being safER than other things instead of safe vs unsafe.

And really, they need to decide - what is safe enough? What is the level of safety that is ok? That's how most people make decisions - they decide that the car seat regulations have decided for them what is safe enough, so they feel any legal car seat is a reasonable choice. And that seems a pretty sane way to think.

If you get into this "must be the safest" approach, there is no ceiling.

I agree OP.

I rear face and plan on maxing out my DS' 25kg seat. When I first came across the car safety groups I really bought into it all. I still do believe it's safer and would also rear face future children but the groups themselves are just awful.

There's one admin particular who I actually wonder what's happened to as I feel I've watched a descent into a complete personality change over a couple of years. She started off polite and informative and really interested in educating people. I only rarely saw her be quite firm and that was when eg someone was refusing all suggestions because they wanted one with prettier patterns and she pointed out that safety was more important.

Then over the years something changed and she became more and more aggressive. It's not just aimed at the people arguing with her - people really politely asking for advice or questions get jumped on, sarcastic comments and really aggressively spoken to especially if they don't know something that's common knowledge on there. A lot of people seem quite frightened by her and I feel bad because part of the reason people buy from the admin businesses is to get the aftercare support and advice from that group but it's no longer a welcoming place.

One of the main things that bothers me is the reply people get when their children have managed to open the buckle of their car seat. At one point I remember admins would suggest eg Velcro on the button or a certain belt buckle clip that was safety tested.

However now I always see one admin in particular respond to these posts saying that they need to parent and teach their child to behave, shouting really loudly if needed to so they know it's serious. Which might sound fine until I mention that they're often asking about very young toddlers eg early 2s or even in one case 18 months old!!!! She told the parent of the 18 month old that it was her job to teach her child not to do it and to discipline the child. When the mum questioned this (probably assuming she'd misread the age as 18m is not far off a baby) the admin was really unkind eg "what would you do if she was about to run into a road? Or reached out to burn their hand?"

Umm... well not scream at them to be honest? I'd be more concerned with physically grabbing them to keep them safe which you can't do in a car seat and is why ideally a solution would involve stopping them escaping at all.

I'm just amazed that its a group where forward facing a child is basically murdering them and they're so serious about getting exactly the right fit and making sure the right clothes are worn etc. Yet they think it's ok to leave the safety of a 1 year old dependent on how well they remember being screamed at my their mum.Even if you manage to "scare" them, they do not have good impulse control at that age and I cannot comprehend how you can leave life or death up to how well your one year old behaves and does what you tell them to.

I even saw someone whose child was a bit older but had autism and didn't understand the consequences of opening the buckle. The admin got in an argument with this person basically saying that lots of autistic people can learn not to undo the buckle and that it was offensive to autistic people to say that. The poster clarified that she wasn't saying all autistic people can't understand consequences but specifically her child. She got jumped on by the car seat cult and basically told it was a parenting issue.

Honestly seeing such a lack of understanding of child development has put me off massively and actually made me trust the whole thing a lot less. Also, a lot of non-car seat topics posted seem quite "woo" and it does have the same cultish vibe as the BLW groups.

I initially saw it as really scientific and evidence based but often when someone asks for evidence they post eg a YouTube video of someone saying it's safer (I can post a YouTube video of me saying I have a pet dinosaur but I don't think the museum of natural history are going to see it and give me a visit). Or they post a video from one of the manufacturers of the seat. Or a random flyer with no source for the information.

I've spent so many hours researching and I do actually still think it's likely significantly safer to rear face but I also think perhaps it's not the end of the world kind of thing I once thought.

The safe vs unsafe thing bothers me too. They act as if one thing is safe and one thing is unsafe and that's it. Safe is obviously a spectrum. Sitting the baby on the roof and driving down the motorway is extremely unsafe. Never putting your child in a car is the most safe. We take risks all the time. We just minimise them as we can.

I find it so annoying that they act like rear facing a 3 year 10 month old child is the same risk as putting a 9 month old straight from an infant carrier to a front facing seat. We all put our line of acceptable risk somewhere. I actually think it's fair enough if they want to decline giving advice about front facing before a certain age but I do wish they'd refer to things being safER than other things instead of safe vs unsafe.

It's because they think that everyone will agree with them, if they just quote their "facts" because they don't understand that people weigh up all kinds of competing elements.

So anyone in their mind who disagrees is stupid or doesn't love their kids and deserves to be treated like shit.

They can't cope with people who disagreed with their math either.

This is what I find so bizarre. Surely if you were really of the view that every precaution that you can possibly take is mandatory, morally speaking, the thing to do is never take the child out of the home.

Of course, if everyone did that, almost all deaths of children would take place in the home, so that would then be the riskiest place to be!

Out of curiosity I looked at the Trust Pilot reviews for the forum owner who has her own business selling car seats.
OMG. The one star reviews, and her spectacularly rude responses to them!

I'm pretty sure that many of the 5* ones are written by her friends. They don't read naturally at all.

The thing I always think when I read this stuff is if a car is so dangerous for your kids then why have one at all!

But I am a smug city centre dwelling non car owner.

It is bonkers, the whole car seat thing IMO is a not so STEALTH way to show off wealth and status on who can afford the best seats - under the guise of child safety.

People berating another person for not buying a rear facing seat, that is worth more than the car they drive in. From their logic you might as well just never take you child in a car. And then these same people are happy to travel on a train or bus all without a car seat so it seams…..

And trust me I have my hard hat on as I know the car seat cult mob will be out in force (my son is a teenager now and he forward faced more years than some of these posters marriages) and quote me negatively. Don’t bother - I won’t respond.

Thank you!

I do try. I am not a fan of the FB groups - too echo chambery and judgemental. It's a shame because I did learn a lot there and I do find it fun to geek out over car seats (yes perhaps I should join one of the various Dull groups instead ) But to be perfectly honest, it is very difficult to tell fact from fiction on them because myths get repeated so often people believe them without question, and it becomes extremely difficult to challenge it because the format of FB groups does not encourage nuance. When it got to the point I was literally seeing the myths grow from nothing to solid, unquestioned, gospel truth I couldn't take it any more and unfollowed them all.

I have not managed to find any relevant evidence supporting either the bone ossification theory, any specific age for turning from RF to FF nor the idea that FF harnesses are worse than seatbelts.

It is definitely true that RF reduces risk compared to FF, and the younger the child the more extreme the difference. If you can make it work then absolutely do because it's worth it. If you can't make it work, get the best FF seat you can. If you can't change the seat you've got, read the instructions and follow them to the letter. Read them again because you'll have forgotten things. (I have.)

You can RF in a small car. (But not with every seat)

You can RF on a budget (But it's not worth going into debt or financial hardship for)

There are RF seats designed for giant tall Swedish children - they have leg room built in. I can put up a picture if you like

It literally doesn't matter which RF seat you choose. It might matter which FF seat you choose - there are more differences between them and the differences matter more.

Using the seat properly (or at all) is much more important than RF/FF. Most children killed or injured in car crashes are unrestrained or improperly restrained. If you're using a good quality FF seat properly, you're already doing better than average. If you find out you've been doing something wrong, don't feel bad, be glad you found out! It's usually easily fixed, and no harm done.

If the law was changed to mandate RF until age 4, it would save about six lives a year (UK figures). I am not saying that those six children aren't important. Of course they are. But it's really not the major issue that ERF advocates make it out to be. The law (15 months) is adequate IMO but I do want parents to know that it is worth RF longer than 15 months if it's working for you. Personally I would aim for a minimum of 2, preferably longer. But any increase in RF is worth it.

I don't think it's helpful that people seeking advice about FF seats are chased away or only offered impossible perfect solutions, and I extremely dislike the words "safe" and "unsafe" used in this context because they are totally misleading. You can only make relative judgements about this, not absolute. Safer/less safe. It's fine to have a personal line that you don't feel comfortable with - I don't think it's fair to impose that line on others. Everyone makes their own risk assessment.

I know exactly the group you are on about! I’ve recently joined a new one called bump to booster and it so far seems much friendlier.

@Busby88 I found them to be very rude, i left the group soon after joining no need to talk to people the way they do.

I posted on here asking for advice on car seats and she gave me very informative advice.

I'd already asked in a FB group but because I was asking about a forward facing seat I got very few responses and none that really answered what I was asking.

That’s why a four year old would be safer rear facing. 6 is better for a hbb.

I think that every comment on this thread is about her and her group, so toxic. Saw before I got booted that all the admins left and wanted to know what happened there!

As if the parents of kids who get carsick haven't tried any of the other stuff first. It's not an excuse to turn them FF, we only do it because it actually helps, and is much safer and less stressful than the alternative. The likelihood of having an accident is low. Child choking on vomit on every journey = much higher overall risk of harm.

I fully support ERF and will be rear facing my son for as long as reasonably possible, as it truly is safest - however, the biggest Facebook group is fucking insane. All the other admins/retailers fucked off and left two in charge, one of them just being the most arrogant person going.

I got kicked for a comment in another mom group where I said the environment was a bit hostile and unsupportive because of one of the admins (not named or anything). Someone must have screencapped the comments. It’s so weird and culty. And inappropriate when you read the reviews on Trustpilot for her company and history of threatening to contact people’s places of work etc because they left a bad review or comment in a group.

My friend was booted for liking a comment where someone had said that using the death of a toddler in a car crash as propaganda in the group (‘maybe if this child had been in an axkid they’d not be dead!’) was a bit off-colour. I got good information from the group but people could be so bitchy and rude. No one knows everything from the get-go, nor can we everyone afford the most expensive seat.

I agree with the mission to improve car seat safety, but not with how some of these groups are so quick to shame people. Plus the conflict of interest when they’ll only offer fit checks to people who’ve bought from them. If you buy an Axkid or an Avionaut (very good seats that they recommend) from an online shop not them, they won’t help and I think that’s kinda shitty. Of course they’ll say your Joie R129 isn’t quite good enough, they don’t stock those in their own online shops! Some of the admins were great, but it all gets overshadowed by the few on a power trip who seems to get off on making moms feel bad, and the people who jump right on posts of bad seats as if the parent purposely wanted to waste money on a crap car seat.

I think harnessed is considered less safe in this situation because it holds the body in place while, in a crash, the head would be forced forward, putting pressure on the neck.

Whereas, in a HBB with a seatbelt, the whole child (and seat) would move forward a little bit, before being stopped by the seatbelt, with less pressure on the neck,

But yes, I do agree that the groups can get crazy and can be a totally toxic environment.

It is cult-like. They all know what they consider to be good, and what they consider to be "bad", and if somebody comes on saying the wrong thing, you can just tell they are going to get ripped to shreds.

I'm all for making the best choices you can to keep your kids safe....but I often wonder if these parents are applying the same rigid standards of safety to all aspects of their kids lives and I don't see how they could to be honest. It would be impossible to maintain.

It's a shame because there is some good info in these groups, and it's ruined by people just taking things to the extreme and then piling on people who aren't totally indoctrinated the way they are.

Ha! I’m in a few purely for shits and giggles too. So entertaining. Probably why I’m here too. Every now and then I ponder going mad and posting about how I don’t want to ERF because it would wreck the beautiful leather of my seats 🔥