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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be frustrated that people don't understand that individualism is not compatible with a collectivist mindset?

192 replies

User09678 · 18/01/2025 14:12

Which we need to solve most of our most critical and existential issues?

OP posts:
User09678 · 19/01/2025 13:34

Anniedash · 19/01/2025 13:29

And there we go. The climate hysteria kicks in.

I'm disappointed you weren't able to dig in to your points more substantively. It would have enriched the discussion

OP posts:
User09678 · 19/01/2025 13:32

JaninaDuszejko · 19/01/2025 12:59

And if he had died as a small child resulting in Andrew being the King would you still be so happy with the idea of monarchy?

I didn't really have present day UK in mind as a starting point! I don't think revolution nor reform is going to save us now 😅

OP posts:
User09678 · 19/01/2025 13:31

TunnocksOrDeath · 19/01/2025 12:55

If you compare the rates for violent crime and homicide in countries like the US and Switzerland, where there is a high level of firearm ownership, versus the rates in countries where owning a gun is rare, it is very clear that insuring against a hypothetical organised-threat in the future by allowing the general population access to killing apparatus, in the home, now is a dumb thing to do.
Even looking at accidents, In the USA, the CDC's own report says that between 2003 and 2017, there were 1,262 unintentional firearm injury deaths among children aged 0–17 years! Do you think this is what people were anticipating in 1791 when the 2nd amendment was adopted?

How does the accident rate in Switzerland compare? What data is collected around the circumstances of these incidents, what proportion are they within families/households?

OP posts:
Anniedash · 19/01/2025 13:29

User09678 · 19/01/2025 11:52

Thats quite a leap of faith, to assume that:

A. we are progressing (which begs the question - to what? And whose set of values has informed this as our collective goal)

And

B. When exactly will they benefit all? Have they really produced net gain until now? Or have they been offset by their tradeoffs? Will they worth it when we're all underwater?

And there we go. The climate hysteria kicks in.

midgetastic · 19/01/2025 13:08

If you can only think of positives for anything ( biotech included ) you are not thinking hard enough

The best we can hope is that positives outweigh negatives

Any tech can be bad in the hands of the wrong people

midgetastic · 19/01/2025 13:06

We need a balance

Collective and individual

That's hard because people like simple thinking

Collective where it helps the average individual and individual where it doesn't harm another individual

Full on individual leads to a Wild West , survival of those with the most money, heaviest fists and fastest feet

Full on collective stifles creativity

Yardbird · 19/01/2025 13:02

JaninaDuszejko · 19/01/2025 13:01

@User09678 could you expand on why you think biotech is bad for women? You've mentioned it several times as a bad thing and I was wondering why. Because I can only think of positives.

I’m really interested in this too

JaninaDuszejko · 19/01/2025 13:01

@User09678 could you expand on why you think biotech is bad for women? You've mentioned it several times as a bad thing and I was wondering why. Because I can only think of positives.

rewilded · 19/01/2025 13:00

JaninaDuszejko · 19/01/2025 12:59

And if he had died as a small child resulting in Andrew being the King would you still be so happy with the idea of monarchy?

I am sure he would be ousted pretty fast.

JaninaDuszejko · 19/01/2025 12:59

rewilded · 19/01/2025 12:50

TBH I think if King Charles took over he would make a good job of it. He has a moral compass, cares for the environment, is accepting that his position is given by God etc

And if he had died as a small child resulting in Andrew being the King would you still be so happy with the idea of monarchy?

TunnocksOrDeath · 19/01/2025 12:55

User09678 · 19/01/2025 08:39

School shootings are a symptom of our fragmentation and atomisation though. The ideal would be an armed society but one where it would never enter into anyone head to harm a member of their community.

Think about the potential of a population where only the state are armed. It's not that much of a reach to imagine a near future where that means law enforcement are basically Musks private militia. And he knows you have no defence against that.

If you compare the rates for violent crime and homicide in countries like the US and Switzerland, where there is a high level of firearm ownership, versus the rates in countries where owning a gun is rare, it is very clear that insuring against a hypothetical organised-threat in the future by allowing the general population access to killing apparatus, in the home, now is a dumb thing to do.
Even looking at accidents, In the USA, the CDC's own report says that between 2003 and 2017, there were 1,262 unintentional firearm injury deaths among children aged 0–17 years! Do you think this is what people were anticipating in 1791 when the 2nd amendment was adopted?

rewilded · 19/01/2025 12:50

TBH I think if King Charles took over he would make a good job of it. He has a moral compass, cares for the environment, is accepting that his position is given by God etc

rewilded · 19/01/2025 12:46

I am enjoying this thread too. If you are not a bot, OP - well done!

SerendipityJane · 19/01/2025 12:33

The state took over a lot of things that people, families and communities used to do themselves.

Maybe because some families and communities showed they couldn't be trusted ?

Just a thought.

ImustLearn2Cook · 19/01/2025 12:23

@User09678 “You don't feel the best societal institutions are built by people's sacrifices to the greater good? Without anyone willing to do that, you can't do anything. At all.”

You do realise that this is precisely the mindset and attitudes of the Nazis to justify the horrific, inhumane murder, torture and genocide of the Jewish people? People were convinced that it was for the greater good of Germany. This is a very significant problem and a major flaw with a collectivist mindset. People can be lead to dehumanising people and violating basic human rights, such as the right to being safe etc. if they believe it is for the greater good.

User09678 · 19/01/2025 12:11

ImustLearn2Cook · 19/01/2025 10:50

Every person is a self governing individual part of a collective whole.

Autonomy (self governance) is one of our developmental milestones. Autonomy is naturally part of our human development. So is our bonding, belonging and connection to other human beings. We are social animals. We all need to be loved and nurtured to survive.

Balance is important. The four fundamental forces of nature keep the universe in balance.

If balance is so important, it stands to reason that the individual is equally important as the collective.

So, going from one extreme to the other is not going to be best for all of us. We will not thrive or do well in either extreme.

I agree with the sentiment of the pp you quoted who asked why can’t we have both. We can have both. We can value the individual and the whole of society and life on earth and value the universe.

And as for what definition of individualism do you have in mind, that is a good question. There are different versions of individualism and it can vary in different cultures. How France or England or the USA view, interpret and implement individualism differs.

There are also different versions of collectivism.

I'm not suggesting the don't value the individual. I'm just saying there has to be limits on the demand that individual can place on their society. Because flourishing individualism creates HUGE demands on society.

OP posts:
User09678 · 19/01/2025 12:07

SoapySponge · 19/01/2025 12:01

How does "a collectivist mindset" differ from peer pressure?

Peer pressure is externally imposed and often used in the context where people have different preferences.

A collective mindset is when people believe in their shared goals and the means with which to achieve them. If someone disagreed, they would experience pressure. But don't you think sometimes stigma serves a valuable social function? For the individual as well as the great body

OP posts:
User09678 · 19/01/2025 12:03

whereaw · 19/01/2025 10:50

I also don't understand the frustration- we are an individual in so much as we have to be responsible for our own actions, even in a collectivist minded society, unless you are talking about one where there is complete control? Which surely no one would advocate for.
It's an interesting thread/ debate but the original post makes no sense.

I don't think that the most worthy aim in life is the benefit of the group, but rather our benefit within the group. Being a mother, friend, daughter, citizen etc. brings meaning and purpose at an individual level. It's not either/ or.
There is a place for collectivism and individualism.

You don't feel that hypermodernity acts as a solvent against these relations? Leaving behind nothing but a frightened individual with nowhere to turn but the market. Because I think that's what's been happening and we're nearly there.

You don't feel the best societal institutions are built by people's sacrifices to the greater good? Without anyone willing to do that, you can't do anything. At all.

OP posts:
SoapySponge · 19/01/2025 12:01

How does "a collectivist mindset" differ from peer pressure?

User09678 · 19/01/2025 11:59

MistressoftheDarkSide · 19/01/2025 10:24

Very interesting thread.

So many conflicting interests in the world in general, plus the sense that we live in a time of engineered illusion in every area means we're struggling with cognitive dissonance both on a philosophical and practical level.

The only thing that most people are focused on is money. Without money, there is no power and little choice for the average person. The means to acquire the amount of money to cover basic necessities is being ever more tightly controlled, and increases inequality. The most basic bit of individualism is simply trying to survive on an economic level. On the one hand this depends on collectivism, but because of the underlying ideologies of who should be the "haves" and "have nots" we're floundering in terms of ethics and morals.

Is individualism the same as personal responsibility and the much vaunted demands for resilience? In which case collectivism is difficult to achieve.

Much of historical collectivism has been based on belief. People behaved "because God" or fear of punitive consequence from brutality regimes. There may have been good outcomes for communities that toed the line but outliers disagreeing with negative consequences were soon put in their place or simply eliminated.

Freedom of thought is fundamental but ironically these days we are hamstrung by the "thought police" more than ever, and investigation into why always leads back to whoever controls the purse strings, and by extension the mechanisms of power.

Individualism suits TPTB as it helps keep us atomised and under control. Getting collectives together to address issues affecting community depends on people being willing and available to gather and discuss solutions, yet due to work commitments, caring responsibilities etc etc, people can barely even organise leisure time with people they want to relax with never mind take on bigger external issues.

Even when there is common ground in fighting around individual differences of opinion dilutes the potential power of the collective because one group has blue hair, and another group thinks that those with tattoos are morally deficient and another group thinks that old people are the reason everything is wrong and so it goes on and on. (I've been on committees. It's a particular circle of hell).

Often collectivism is shot down by cries of "naive idealism" because even simple solutions to problems are mired in bureaucracy that makes action costly in terms of time and money.

I tried to volunteer at a local homeless charity when I had my own shop in an area where I could see clearly the problems caused by the issue. I went to their offices and asked how I'd go about it. The woman behind the desk rolled her eyes, huffed, shoved a leaflet at me, told me to go to their website, submit a form, they'd decide if I was suitable, and she then dismissed me. My collectivism bone shrank somewhat.

So, I'm out of the game now. An individual focused on survival, keeping my head down and relegated to the status of observer. Not just because of the charity incident, but because of many adjacent experiences where it appears that the collective is a bit of a myth these days.

Sad, but there it is.

It is sad. I don't wonder if certain strains of identity politics have been sown because of their stunning ability to undermine collective endeavours, or if its just a happy accident for those who profit from our poverty and isolation

OP posts:
User09678 · 19/01/2025 11:54

Tumbleweed101 · 19/01/2025 09:42

I think the attitude about having a family has turn completely around in current times. It is seen as a parents choice so let them struggle to raise them. In fact children are necessary for society to continue as those children supported by society now will be the ones running the country when we are old and can not longer work ourselves.

A lot of social policies such as council housing- when it first began - were to strengthen communities by helping people settle down and start families in one place rather a transient population struggling to find housing. We have gone backwards with this as young people are losing their roots and motivation to care as they can’t afford to stay in their community.

It is definitely a fine balance between letting individuals use their interests and strengths against the need for society as a whole to work toward the same goal.

Yes, children were once assets, when we were directly responsible for our own survival more children meant more hands and greater productivity. Now a child is seen as a liability at best and a selfish luxury at worst.

OP posts:
User09678 · 19/01/2025 11:52

Anniedash · 19/01/2025 09:47

Exactly, individualism is far more important and successful than collectivism.

Any progress in history has come off the back of individualistic tendencies and letting people reap the fruits of their own work. Eventually those innovations and progress end up benefitting all.

Thats quite a leap of faith, to assume that:

A. we are progressing (which begs the question - to what? And whose set of values has informed this as our collective goal)

And

B. When exactly will they benefit all? Have they really produced net gain until now? Or have they been offset by their tradeoffs? Will they worth it when we're all underwater?

OP posts:
User09678 · 19/01/2025 11:48

Ponoka7 · 19/01/2025 09:51

Ahh you are into forced birth.
I wondered why feminism was being completely ignored.

Edited

Have you ever read Feminism Against Progress by Mary Harrington? I highly recommend it, even if you disagree with everything she says. Feminism is absolutely not being ignored and has already been mentioned in this thread by me if you had been reading a little closer. Feminism has to respond to the failure of of liberalism and biotech, and I don't see anything from 'magazine' feminism which can reassure me it's even aware of what's on the horizon let alone any form of response to it. "Forced birth" will be a picnic in comparison.

OP posts:
whaddayawannado · 19/01/2025 11:14

Jasnah · 18/01/2025 14:54

Agreed, but collectivism with a focus on what is good, overall, for society would take us into very dark corners of human ethics and morality.

I once had a history teacher who was fully convinced and vocal that a dictatorship is better for a country in the long run than democracy with a multi-party system.

Perhaps we went to the same school, I had a history teacher like that too. His political leanings crept into his lessons to an unnerving degree sometimes.

GretchenWienersHair · 19/01/2025 11:11

AlisonDonut · 19/01/2025 10:28

It wasn't my point originally but I was trying to understand yours.

Surely you have heard of individuals who invent and innovate or even discover and everyone benefits?

I don’t have a point. I said already, I have nothing to add to the thread but do find the views of others interesting.

From the top of my head, I can’t think of an innovation where everyone benefits. Smartphones, for example, benefit us in that they make life more efficient and communication and services are far more accessible, but there are thousands of people in places like Congo, where the minerals to make the iPhones are mined, who are suffering in order to provide us with said benefit. I can’t think of any examples where there is no negative impact on someone along the chain.