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Tories and Labour mooting possible means testing of State Pension

578 replies

Turmerictolly · 17/01/2025 20:58

www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/jan/17/kemi-badenoch-pensions-triple-lock-means-test-alarm-tories

I would be so gutted if this happened but there's noise from both parties about this recently. I think it might be inevitable. What will happen to those of us nearing 60 who have made plans that include the full state pension we've paid contributions for?

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14
PocketSand · 18/01/2025 15:35

@Username056 the fact that you conflate UC and PIP is pertinent and also disabilist. UC is frequently paid to people in low paid jobs and would be reduced if employers paid living wages. PIP is also paid to working people but only those disabled enough to meet criteria.

UC is means tested. PIP is not but is tested according to disability criteria.

I agree that employers should pay a living wage and this would reduce the tax burden/benefit bill without reducing income of workers. Meaning they would still pay into the wider economy.

I don't agree that PIP should be reduced as the reduction would only impact the disabled whether in work or not.

BeensOnToost · 18/01/2025 14:27

It might save money in the middle term but people will start thinking why work, why pay into the system, why be forced to sell my home for care fees etc.

It becomes a race to the bottom.

And in those mid to longer terms, we will see the effect of a lower birth rate... more immigration for care work etc while those that can afford an education train specifically in courses that will get them a visa to a more prosperous country.

MrsPeregrine · 18/01/2025 14:24

Honestly, I feel like with every week that goes by the prospects for the average person in this country gets worse and worse and everything seems so fucking bleak.

TankFlyBossW4lk · 18/01/2025 14:20

TheFairyCaravan · 18/01/2025 05:28

”He’s wealthy enough not to need it…” I bloody wish he was,

I’m disabled, too. Other than PIP I have received nothing. When DH went to war and on other deployments it was my children who were expected to step and care for me. When we needed help we were told by adult social services that they didn’t have a budget for people of my age.

It's interesting to see what you expect from the state though. I think we need a National conversation of what we think the State should provide.

GutsyShark · 18/01/2025 14:09

Miley1967 · 18/01/2025 14:04

Yes also a lot of pensioners that have been on these interest only mortgages for years and now the banks are demanding the mortgages are repaid and they have no t enough equity to buy another property. Whilst these people may have some equity from the house sale to private rent for a few years, this money will inevitably run out. This is another ticking timebomb !

“Banks are demanding”? Interest only mortgages have to be repaid at the end of the term. People in this position knew what the signed up for.

Miley1967 · 18/01/2025 14:04

Almahart · 18/01/2025 13:59

The bill is only going to go up surely with more and more people unable to get onto the housing ladder and so needing rent paid if they are on pension credit

Yes also a lot of pensioners that have been on these interest only mortgages for years and now the banks are demanding the mortgages are repaid and they have no t enough equity to buy another property. Whilst these people may have some equity from the house sale to private rent for a few years, this money will inevitably run out. This is another ticking timebomb !

RebelMoon · 18/01/2025 14:04

Miley1967 · 18/01/2025 13:55

Someone who lives alone and is in receipt of a disability benefit and no-one claims carers allowance for looking after them becomes eligible for a severe disability premium on the pension credit calculation. This increases the threshold by £81 a week. So someone on a basic state pension of £222 a week then gets £81 added to the Pension credit calculation meaning they would get around £77 Pension credit in addition to the Attendance allowance which is £73 or £108 a week depending what rate they get. then getting any amount of guaranteed pension credit gives them all council tax and possibly all rent paid.
I think the average person has no idea how much some pensioners are getting.

Edited

That's interesting, I wasn't aware of that, thank you.

Almahart · 18/01/2025 13:59

The bill is only going to go up surely with more and more people unable to get onto the housing ladder and so needing rent paid if they are on pension credit

Miley1967 · 18/01/2025 13:55

RebelMoon · 18/01/2025 13:42

How does receiving AA increase your chances of getting PC? I don't understand your logic.

Someone who lives alone and is in receipt of a disability benefit and no-one claims carers allowance for looking after them becomes eligible for a severe disability premium on the pension credit calculation. This increases the threshold by £81 a week. So someone on a basic state pension of £222 a week then gets £81 added to the Pension credit calculation meaning they would get around £77 Pension credit in addition to the Attendance allowance which is £73 or £108 a week depending what rate they get. then getting any amount of guaranteed pension credit gives them all council tax and possibly all rent paid.
I think the average person has no idea how much some pensioners are getting.

GOODCAT · 18/01/2025 13:54

I am in my 50s and have worked in the private sector. It wasn't like it is now where you are entitled to pension contributions. Even though I have earned above average for the last 25 years, but not before that and have lived frugally and been a taxpayer that has paid in to supporting today's pensioners, it would be galling to have it means tested when I get there.

There is a risk of it putting people off from saving. It broadens the gap even more with the state sector. It would be fairer for the state sector to have to shift to defined contributions.

GutsyShark · 18/01/2025 13:48

Leafy74 · 18/01/2025 13:20

That would be a fundamental change. Is it fair that it should be applied retrospectively?

No. Pensions need to be planned decades in advance.

But while I sympathise with the people who are saying I have paid in so I’m entitled to it, that mentality just leads to politicians not dealing with the problem because it’s a vote loser.

I’d rather plan for people who are say younger than 30, set it up on a sustainable basis rather than ignore it until drastic change needs to happen overnight when pension funding is in crisis. Same with the NHS but that’s for a separate thread.

cakeorwine · 18/01/2025 13:47

If you receive Attendance Allowance, then you need it because you have needs that need paying for - and that's not means tested.

Pension Credit - this has the details in it.

I am not sure that if you are very wealthy, how easy it is to claim Pension Credit if you claim AA.

But if you claim Pension Credit, then claiming AA can potentially give you more Pension Credit above the minimum guarantee

Pension Credit

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/siteassets/documents/factsheets/fs48_pension_credit_fcs.pdf

DecemberTulips · 18/01/2025 13:47

EmmaMaria · 18/01/2025 13:25

Yes - but your interpretation of them was made up! How do you get that 80% of the welfare benefit spend is made up of pension payments when, by any reading of those figures, it doesn't? So I think I will stick with "not reading".

And you did see my other post later yes?

Where I actually copy and pasted the data?

Or did you just read the first page of the thread and go off to Mr Google ? 🤣

RebelMoon · 18/01/2025 13:42

Miley1967 · 18/01/2025 13:37

Receiving Attendance Allowance hugely increases the chances of becoming eligible for Pension credit especially if living alone.
It is a benefit which is awarded very easily.

How does receiving AA increase your chances of getting PC? I don't understand your logic.

Miley1967 · 18/01/2025 13:37

cakeorwine · 18/01/2025 13:35

Attendance Allowance is not means tested. Anyone can get it if they qualify for it - and it's not that easy to put a claim in for.

That's separate to Pension Credit - but when you get Pension Credit, you do get access to other benefits.

Pension Credit: Overview - GOV.UK

Receiving Attendance Allowance hugely increases the chances of becoming eligible for Pension credit especially if living alone.
It is a benefit which is awarded very easily.

AliceInWonderland24 · 18/01/2025 13:37

Dgr10 · 18/01/2025 00:56

Well here is our problem. People like yourself already starting to say they don't expect state pension, even though as you state it will be the only benefit you ever received, having been net tax payer your whole working life. Unacceptable, paving the way for such reforms. Nobody in this silly country ever asks how is it that in Europe pensions are higher and contribution based, maternity leave is often longer, university education 'free' and health care without massive waiting lists and accessible. Yes they contribute more but once we add all our fractured taxes (inc £2500 council tax), we are high a tax country. May be we just need to review the systems and spending. Why would we pay someone who works part time, receives UC, housing benefit, NHS/dental, etc for years, then pension/pension credit, then free care home, yet punish self sufficient, self funding folk. This is why UK productivity is low, work does not pay! I see work adjustments in all social classes/earning brackets - they simply follow policies. Reduction in income/hours for UC, or to avoid higher tax rates, or 'putting spouse/relative on books as self employed to reduce tax, or having children single for housing and 3 year unoficial maternity leave (no need to work), or extra money with boyfriend on the side, etc. These policies make people tax evasive unlike in Scandinavian countries and resentful. Nowhere else such proposal, effectively a break of social contract would be acceptable especially if billions are sent abroad. Uk the sheep accept all. May be just may be reward work with benefits being time limited and based on salary and years of contributions, maternity leave pay based on salary, same for pensions. You will see how quickly people work extra to increase their benefits. Not rocket science. Removing pension the final benefit for someone like you and me will be the final straw and people may behave differently or emigrate and take their assets abroad - many mid income peeps (50k+ are already doing so). I am also in 40s and already been robbed of serp contributions I paid which were compensated by reduced contribution years for full pension - to just 27 years. Which is useless if I carry on working beyond 40s or if pension is means tested. Finally, Australia has means tested pension but NO inheritance tax, which means that people save as much as possible for retirement and whatever one does not use up goes to next of kin. Uk inheritance tax negates this desire. So I bet people will just stop saving, spend their money, work less and this will have even worse impact on the future of UK finances. Plaese think before you accept this unfair proposal. Other solution is to increase contribution years requirement to 40+ years and to stop rewarding people who did not work enough - pension credit, housing, nhs, unless disabled. But proper checks are needed on disability (like those walking 10k hikes but disabled with knee, or back but gardening/repairing house, or depression leaving hair purposely unwashed for 2 weeks prior to assessment, or pushing for their child to be adhd diagnosed despite several professionals pushing back just for increased UC and child disability element - all true close to home scenarios). Then we wiil be able to afford to support properly the truly disabled. Until we accept some hard truths about the UK systems nothing will change.

Great summary of UK’s problems. I always said I’d never leave London and the UK. Sadly, it makes it financially irresponsible for me and my family to stay for exactly the reasons you outline. I am liquidating all my assets and moving abroad. The financials of this country do not add up and I just refuse to have my taxes misspent any longer. My taxes (and people like me) will be a big loss to this country and at some point there will be a tipping point of exodus and not enough base of remaining tax payers. This will happen sooner rather than later given that 53% of the population are already net beneficiaries and people like me contribute to 30% of all income tax. Before all the VAT from our spending.

cakeorwine · 18/01/2025 13:35

Miley1967 · 18/01/2025 13:26

This is before you even take into account all the other benefits that pensioners get. massive amounts claiming Attendance Allowance, which then makes them eligible for Pension credit in many cases which then means they get all their council tax and rent paid ( no wonder councils are bankrupt). It's completely unsustainable. I think unless you work in this area ( I do ) people don't realize just how much pensioners are getting. The press have us believe that most pensioners are surviving on £220 a week. Some are but the vast majority have way more than that. It has been an absolute eye opener working in my current job for a charity for the elderly. Even the pensioners themselves are gobsmacked at whet they end up getting and ask me to check I'm correct when I give them the figures.

Edited

Attendance Allowance is not means tested. Anyone can get it if they qualify for it - and it's not that easy to put a claim in for.

That's separate to Pension Credit - but when you get Pension Credit, you do get access to other benefits.

Pension Credit: Overview - GOV.UK

Pension Credit

Pension Credit is extra money for pensioners to bring your weekly income up to a minimum amount - what you'll get, apply, eligibility.

https://www.gov.uk/pension-credit

Miley1967 · 18/01/2025 13:26

1dayatatime · 18/01/2025 13:22

Looking at the maths of the state pension:

So the average UK salary is £36k on which you would pay £7k in tax (£4.5k income and £2.5k NI)
The current state pension is £11,500.
There are currently 3.6 workers for every one pensioner in the UK (and this ratio is dropping, estimated to 2 to 1 by 2050).
So 3.6 workers raise £25,200 in tax revenue, the share of this tax spent on the state pension (£11,500) is 45%.

So nearly half of all employment taxation for an average worker gets spent on state pensions.

Whatever your politics- this is not sustainable.

This is before you even take into account all the other benefits that pensioners get. massive amounts claiming Attendance Allowance, which then makes them eligible for Pension credit in many cases which then means they get all their council tax and rent paid ( no wonder councils are bankrupt). It's completely unsustainable. I think unless you work in this area ( I do ) people don't realize just how much pensioners are getting. The press have us believe that most pensioners are surviving on £220 a week. Some are but the vast majority have way more than that. It has been an absolute eye opener working in my current job for a charity for the elderly. Even the pensioners themselves are gobsmacked at whet they end up getting and ask me to check I'm correct when I give them the figures.

EmmaMaria · 18/01/2025 13:25

DecemberTulips · 18/01/2025 11:56

Oh look you linked to similar information I posted hours before... Well done.
Good reading of the thread there whilst accusing me of not reading.. 🤣🤣

Yes - but your interpretation of them was made up! How do you get that 80% of the welfare benefit spend is made up of pension payments when, by any reading of those figures, it doesn't? So I think I will stick with "not reading".

Uta100 · 18/01/2025 13:24

I think it’s inevitable this will happen at some point, but not for today’s 50+ year olds. It will be those currently in their 20’s & 30’s who will suffer.

1dayatatime · 18/01/2025 13:22

Looking at the maths of the state pension:

So the average UK salary is £36k on which you would pay £7k in tax (£4.5k income and £2.5k NI)
The current state pension is £11,500.
There are currently 3.6 workers for every one pensioner in the UK (and this ratio is dropping, estimated to 2 to 1 by 2050).
So 3.6 workers raise £25,200 in tax revenue, the share of this tax spent on the state pension (£11,500) is 45%.

So nearly half of all employment taxation for an average worker gets spent on state pensions.

Whatever your politics- this is not sustainable.

MrsSunshine2b · 18/01/2025 13:22

DecemberTulips · 18/01/2025 13:12

You realise that your disability and other people's disabilities are different.

So, if you're disabled but able to work.. let's judge EVERY disabled person you.
How do you think would be? So anyone who is disabled that can't walk, see, hear, speak etc is now held up and compared to you and your situation, or they get no financial help.

Is that Fair? Do you think?
Or ridiculous?

Is the statement:
"I can work, so ALL disabled people can"
Truthful or no?

Where did I say that? I'm saying that the government working with employers to find ways to enable more disabled people to work would be a good thing. Many disabled people COULD work, but don't, not because they don't want to but because there are unnecessary blocks in place to them doing so.

Leafy74 · 18/01/2025 13:20

GutsyShark · 18/01/2025 12:37

I don’t know that anyone is advocating for scrapping state pension. Just targeting the money at the people who need it rather than it being universal regardless of other circumstances.

If (and it’s a big if) I am able to put enough money into a pension that I can live without state pension then wouldn’t it be more sensible for people like yourself and others to receive that money instead?

That would be a fundamental change. Is it fair that it should be applied retrospectively?

PointySnoot · 18/01/2025 13:20

It links to a broader problem around the social contract breaking down - trying to make changes is going to focus attention on the elephant in the room, which is wider social unrest if unpopular changes are made, even if they are necessary.

Using gateway benefits as a marker for eligibility sounds like a logical idea. But as PP have already pointed out, there are sizeable numbers of people who have never worked and will probably never work. This isn't debating the rights and wrongs of the state safety net - people who need help, including if that means they cannot work, should get help. But the volume of people not working is not sustainable.

Someone who has worked all their life, with earnings that take them just above the gateway benefit threshold, is likely to be understandably unhappy if they are then told that their SP is to be means tested. But equally a young person entering the workforce, with its now-inherent insecurity, eroded protections, and diminishing returns - you can understand why some of them think "why bother?".

I think the state pension is the canary in the coalmine for a much wider problem which needs root and branch change of our economic system including taxation and social benefits. People should not be penalised or financially dis-incentivised from working. Likewise, companies should not be able to set up elaborate corporate structures which result in them paying artificially low rates of corporation tax.