To think natural consequences are frustratingly ineffective???

Yes, kids have to care about the consequences. My kids once repeatedly ignored my requests to stop doing something silly in the living room one morning as ot was clear it would end up with something getting broken. A household item did get broken.

I then told them we couldn't go out to the cafe we were planning to visit because I had to spend the lunch money on replacing the item they had broken.

They didn't do it again.

This, exactly. Lots of misunderstandings of natural consequences here. Of course no one that uses natural consequences just shrugs and lets their child die in the road. You can run in the road, so either you choose to behave sensibly, or if that's too tricky (whether through choice or developmental stage) then the parent intervenes to keep you safe. The natural consequence of not behaving safely is the intervention to keep you safe (constant hand holding/reins/not going places you want to etc depending on age).

OP, I think you also need to pick battles. So if your kids are still young, I would intervene to stop breakages of some things before they can happen (eg precious things out of reach).

Remember that you getting angry/upset is also a natural consequence and that will teach your children thier actions have consequences. I think it's much healthier to show a bit of anger (and I do mean a bit, nothing crazy) compared to calmly putting your child on a "naughty step" like a psychopath. When sitting on a step has nothing to do with the behaviour you're punishing. That's my interpretation of natural consequences, it's like showing your child you're human and thier behaviour has an impact on you instead of doing supernanny's mad ideas.

Also in future I just wouldn't let them have China mugs.

Ime natural consequences work better for teenagers. With much smaller children it needs to be something they will miss for it to be effective. If ours destroyed things deliberately, they helped mend it, or else replaced it with their pocket money. If it was an accident then that's totally different. Consequences have never really worked with our youngest though, but she's ND. She knows right from wrong but sometimes seems unable to control her reactions. If anything, I wish she'd care a little less when things get lost or broken (seriously, she's inconsolable and even struggles to let go of old toys and clothes to charity shops etc). At 8 she's turning out just fine using other methods of behaviour modification.

Forgot to add that kids need both.

I think it’s a very tall order to expect kids of this age to forward think this much, especially environmentally.

Honestly I think many of these parenting approaches (not all) are mainly designed so the parent has some tactic to use, not that they actually work. Kids largely are who they are. Having twins who are parented the same but polar opposites in temperament and personality has taught me that.

Kids aren't in charge because they don't have capacity to understand their decisions. If you carry on with natural consequences you'll never get them to school.

You're the adult and you're in changing of managing their time. It's absolutely fine to confiscate stuff if they are going to break it or tell them they need to play gently if you care about it.

You know that you don't need to sign up to namby pamby parenting? You're allowed to decide the rules.

The thing is, there is a difference between natural consequences and boundaries (hard lines in the sand that are non negotiable).

For example, teeth brushing is a boundary. It must happen, not just wait for the "natural consequences " or rotting teeth and painful/uncomfortable medical interventions to fix it. However, if they're not brushing their teeth because of x (playing/devices/whatever) then x gets removed or their time isn't their own until x,y,z is done because they can't manage it properly.

Same with running in the road. Absolute no no, and the natural consequence isn't being run over. It's holding hands/being in the pram(if young enough) or reins or whatever since they can't be trusted.

It's boundaries that create habits , consequences are to teach them to think twice (which can take a long time , simply due to child development).

The things that poster described weren't accidents any more than any other examples given on the thread. She was obviously pointing out the absurdity of natural consequences in at least some situations. I certainly would punish a child for running off if they were choosing not to listen to being told to hold an adult's hand or stop at the lamppost or whatever.

They dont realise objects have value because they dont have to work to earn money to pay fr things.

Tell them how much value an item has and how long they will have to work to pay to replace it.

Then make them do it!

That's natural consequences

If they aren't arsed about losing toys, maybe there are too many available. I wish I'd done this when mine were a bit younger (now 7 and 10), but the montessori thing where you rotate toys only keeping a few out at a time and the rest kept away somewhere out of sight and reach might be a good idea.

But I 100% feel your pain wirh natural consequences. Sometimes they worked great for me and other times I can't think what the natural consequence might be eg, I need to go shopping for groceries and they don't want to come along, so what do I say "oh well then we won't get any food this week"? 😂. No.

I agree with egging up or manipulating the natural consequences. So recently one of mine threw something carelessly and it dented his sister’s guitar. Well it’s not reasonable for him to replace the guitar but he could afford to buy guitar strings for her. Vaguely related consequences was is as good as we could get.

But there’s a line between natural consequence and neglect eg wearing no shoes in the frost and getting frostbite is neglectful, nit a natural consequence

You need to work with the child you've got. The natural consequence for us was more along the lines of helping to clear up the mess, helping to fix the problem rather than just binning the toy. They sound like nice kids to me. What DO they value if not stuff?

If there are a lot of breakages in your house, maybe the natural consequence (on you) has been the normalising of breakages!

It takes time! You also have to accept that they are just less bothered than you about certain things. They have enough toys so they're not upset when something breaks.

I do think natural consequences are very important though. I've just had a quick look now and can't find it but I've seen research that suggests prisoners don't understand natural consequences and that illogical consequences (most punishments) in particular can lead to people just feeling like bad things inexplicably happen to them. Which is a vicious cycle of more antisocial behaviour.

Yep this.
Natural consequences are utterly impractical and it’s a bs concept

I think natural consequences have a place, but for some of those little broken things that they actually don’t care about there’s not a lot of consequence there. I think all you can do is try to drill it into them to pick up toys once they’re done playing with them, and also to accept yourself that some of that stuff will inevitably get broken. For stuff like breaking other people’s things and leaving the house in time for social engagements I think it’s less a case of natural consequences and more of firm boundaries about how we treat other people, and a row here and there when deserved is absolutely fine.

Natural consequences only really work when they are old enough to make the link between x and y and when y matters to them enough. Until then adults need to set and reinforce boundaries, being consistent in their response.

So breaking the dolls house would either mean helping me fix it if the child is old enough or removing it and not replacing it, because breaking the doors leaves sharp edges. Not caring for a ceramic cup would mean the cup being removed, because letting them use it until it’s broken doesn’t teach them to care for their belongings, it teaches them that things are disposable. Hot wheels left on the floor get picked up at tidy up time.

I can’t think of a way of parenting that doesn’t mean imposing consequences at some point, and I do subscribe to therapeutic parenting because my kids are adopted and have early trauma in the mix. They still need clear boundaries.

Natural consequences are just one type of tool in parenting, it shouldnt be relied on as a whole

Some things just dont fit with natural consequences and there are other expectations in life about consequences that dont just affect the child/person, so a consequence sometimes has to take effect because you have hurt someone else or broken a law or rule or something.

This is excellent advice.

You've articulated that a lot of the time there needs to be a parental intervention before a natural consequence.

I think natural consequences are fine in situations that a) aren't urgent and b) don't matter a great deal in the wider scheme of things. They are valuable teaching moments about how the world works. I just think most people use them without labelling it as anything.

So for my son he knows the amount of time we have for bedtime stories is dependent on him getting into pyjamas and teeth brushed in time. Or that if he's not ready for nursery quickly in the morning we won't have time to go there on his scooter and we'll have to get in the car which he doesn't want to do. That sort of thing.

You getting cross when they break your stuff is actually a natural consequence. It's what would happen with anyone else outside the family.

There's a middle ground between screaming at them.and not telling them off at all.

They are young to get it now, but keep it going. I wish I had done it with my shiftless, entitled late teens. We are finally exposing them to it, instead of me fixing everything and it’s not pleasant.

Do they have too much stuff?

My 3 year old is careful with his things and would be heartbroken if they broke. We don't have a lot of things.