To think natural consequences are frustratingly ineffective???

Trust me, it doesn't come naturally, it's why I stopped at 1 because I would have been crap with 2. It gets easier as they get older. I have to really consciously do the fun mummy thing. Deep breath, ignore that kids being kids and wanting to act feral is like nails on a chalkboard for me and really try. Everyone has their own "one thing" that they find hard and the only reason I manage it 99% of the time is because I was having a rough time of it and realised I was becoming shouty mum and so I promised myself that if I was going to get just one thing right each day, it was trying to be nice and gentle before having to be more direct and authoritative amd thinknofnit like a process. It's hard! Most relationships, people are working with you, kids seem to work against you! Patience and drawing the line between treating them like people and asking nicely and firmly telling them what is going to happen is hard, especially without the mum guilt.

Sorry for the waffle, the gist is basically that being a mum is hard and I'm sure you're doing better than you think and will one day have a lovely adult child and know that you've done a good job. Hang in there x

Breaking a toy and not then having it is a natural consequence. It doesn't mean that the child will care in the moment but over time they may learn that they need to be more careful about breakable items.

Refusing to take them out because they didn't get ready on time is not a natural consequence. Maybe it's a logical consequence - though generally people don't give up on an outing just because they are late. A natural consequence of not being ready on time is that you are late or miss the event because you can no longer get there.

A natural consequence is something you LET happen, not something you choose to do.

You seem to be expecting children to learn from one event - they don't, they need many repetitions over time.

For younger children you may just decide to avoid certain things - like having a breakable cup nearby. Use plastic. If they don't get ready on time, maybe it's because they don't have your understanding of time. You therefore engineer it so they are ready on time.

You should scaffold your children to succeed and have realistic expectations for them. Also calmly explain things- I'm moving the breakable mug because you might knock it over, rather than warning them of what might happen. They will learn from what you say, you don't need to engineer situations they will be upset over.

I think that’s really doing down the average 6 year old. 6 year olds aren’t tiny. They are more than capable of treating things carefully (bet you they don’t fling electronics around) and understanding they are being a pain in the arse to others. I think more abstract concepts such as “environment” and “expensive day out” are trickier - and that’s why they need to JFDI. In depth Understanding comes later.

If they aren't bothered, there's not much you can do. I well remember my eldest refusing to tidy up his toys. He was about three. I tried persuasion, everything I could but no, he'd rather dance around doing his own thing and not tidying up. So I said 'if you don't help me tidy these toys up (they were Sticklebricks if I remember rightly) then I will have to throw them in the bin.'

My son said 'well, that means YOU have to pick them all up and YOU have to replace them because they aren't yours.' Sometimes you are just on a hiding to nothing....

They’re not natural consequences. They’re consequences artificially imposed.

The consequence of not playing nicely might be that nobody wants to play with you any more. You’re right, it isn’t immediate and my opinion is that natural consequences work in some situations better than others. It’s also not a quick fix.

I think it’s just that your expectations of tiny children are off. At six, they are going to break stuff, act impulsively, and live in the moment. They aren’t going to grasp the cost of a day out, the implications of inconveniencing people, or care about the environment!

At the same time I've noticed parents are interfering too much in their children's social interactions, so kids are unable to feel the natural consequences of not being a good friend etc.

The "natural consequence" of a kid being naughty in my house is that mummy gets angry. And you don't want mummy angry.

The whole method forgets to teach the kid they're being a pain in the arse to others

Perhaps the natural consequence to breaking the lovely ceramic cup is that they have to have plastic sippy cups again? They might be really embarrassed of those, they might not care, but your stuff doesn't get broken and you're not clearing up drink. That's the obvious consequence to me.

And I don’t see why time out or naughty step aren’t logical natural consequences. Not playing nicely with your buddies? A natural consequence is that you’ll be removed from the situation to allow others to play happily. It’s more comprehensible and immediate than many other options.

See, I find the whole “ I can see you’re struggling” spiel as passive aggressive nonsense that’s harder for children to understand. I wouldn’t go with the “acting like a baby” phraseology but I find children find the latter far more comprehensible. Frequently they aren’t struggling with not playing, they just don’t want to, and I’m very comfortable labelling that behaviour as poor/not good enough, and that I will take action (holding hands or whatever) until I can trust them.

I think they need firm, explicit guidance as to what is acceptable and non acceptable behaviour, and using more black and white terms such as good and bad generally works much better until they are old enough to understand that their might be nuance. In many cases, they need to behave properly well before they are old enough to logically think the way “natural consequence” style parenting needs them to.

@Motherofrascals you say they are polite, nice kids.

Other than that, are they well enough behaved in public and at school, do they (mostly) do what you ask them to do- concrete demands, not wooly "please be careful"- , do they tidy up after themselves etc.?

If you're so bothered about the "small stuff" just remove the opportunity for what you can. Plastic cups instead of fancy ones. All kids need a drink and need to learn how to use one, they do not need a fancy one.

If the only issue is them breaking things amd they are polite and awesome kids it looks like you are doing a good job parenting them. If they don't care about 'stuff' maybe they have too much. KS1 is also very young, they wouldn't have a clue about the value of things yet but it will come in time. Maybe look at some books or videos with them about the environment to educate them on the impact of waste.

I think you also need to think about will the consequence be linked to the behaviour in their minds? They are still little so if you planned a nice day out you have conceptualised it, but they may only really understand that they are being expected to get ready and get in the car. So they don't feel the consequence. Whereas if they were playing up once you got there you might give several warnings and then follow through and go home early. That's clearer.

Similarly delayed consequences make less sense when kids are small. Tomorrow is too far away to link properly.

I also wonder can you do some positive behaviour stuff. So, yes as a treat you can use Mummy's special mug. Let's sit at the table, hold it with two hands etc to look after it. It's very easy to get into a 'don't' loop.

I’m sorry your Mum spoke to you that way and I understand why you don’t want to pass that on. Try not to go too far the other direction, which is sounds like you’re not as you are here, reflecting.

I worked through a lot of stuff by forgiving my parents for the anger and abuse growing up. It allowed me to reset with my daughter and stop parenting with so much reflection that I was avoiding my parents style and just focusing on who I am and who she is, and building from there. Try to hit reset on your childhood (I had to see a therapist to do that) and create space to be me and treat my parenting situation as my own. You know your kids best so vibe with what works for them but don’t be afraid to put your foot down. Problem is when you’ve been abused you haven’t always seen the best parenting and it’s so hard to know what to do. Relax, don’t overthink it. You have the right intentions. Just sit back and little and give yourself space to work out what you want to do and build that instinct you need to parent your kids your way. Not your parents way. Not a parenting method way. But stepping up to do what’s needed for your family. And you can only do that if you look after yourself and your inner child first. You’re not crap, you’re not the things your mother called you. Ask your husband and kids the top three things they like about you and believe them. Good luck xxx

Natural consequences is one of those things that might work with some kids but doesn’t sound like it’s working here for your children or you. It sounds like a lot of pressure to put on kids to think like that, maybe when they’re older? Most children need structure and discipline (discipline isn’t a dirty word - we are our children’s guide). If you’ve not been to an event you’ve had tickets for because Billy isn’t getting ready on time then he’s potentially missing out on something that could have been awesome for him. If DD had her way she’d be a couch potato and no amount of gentle parenting is gently getting her out of that. But when we push her to do an activity, the smile on her face when she’s climbed the hill or exploring a forest is worth it. We want to protect our kids but we should be pushing them and not giving them the burden of adult decision-making.

Every kid is different. My DD10 likes the freedom to decide what order she gets ready for school. She has a visual chart of what she needs to do and as long as it’s done by the time the timer goes off I don’t care what order she chooses to do it. She has the freedom to develop planning skills without us nagging every step of the way but the endgame is the same. If she’s not ready on time, unless there’s a good reason, she doesn’t get devices after school and in the evening. She doesn’t argue with it as it’s non-negotiable. It’s not a natural consequence, it’s a parent consequence because it’s my job to get her ready for life and help her help herself.

Yep. These are just rules and boundaries.

These threads are always frustrating in that most people don’t seem to know what natural means and describe imposing a consequence as natural. Some have given good examples of natural consequences but they are the minority.

And, also, although there are far too many weak and overindulgent parents around, no one on these threads will admit to being one of them! But you only need to look at the ‘teenage’ and ‘parenting’ threads to see the results of having no consequences or lame ones.

How many here would like schools to have ‘natural consequences’? If a pupil doesn’t pay attention, they are just allowed to miss the lesson content. No homework, natural consequence is fail your GCSEs.

What also jumps out from these threads are the instinctively brilliant parents, who just seem to do the right things without too much thought. But there are different parents and different children and, if you are not amazing instinctively, parenting can be learned, and involves paired explanations of why something isn’t good to do and the consequences of not doing it.

As an ex second career teacher, I know I started off way too soft and got walked all over. But I had both good mentors and an ability to reflect so, after a couple of years, I had excellent behaviour management skills. There were some teachers who were just amazing instinctively, but 95% aren’t like that (including me) and I think the same goes for parenting. There were also terrible teachers who were either so soft nothing ever got learned or ranted ineffectually with the same effect. But most good teachers do shout from time to time and do get upset. It is the fact that it is rare that makes it an effective tool. And they aren’t frightened to give detentions when necessary.

In summary, natural consequences have a place amongst a toolkit of behaviour management tools but they certainly don’t work in isolation. And we should all be reflective parents, but not beat ourselves up for either losing it or being too soft.

I'd be classed as a gentle parent but again I have hard lines, you don't hold my hand walking alongside a main road and start messing around then will have to use a wrist strap to keep you safe. To me taking steps like that is a natural consequence, it's the natural steps I need to take to keep my child safe, it isn't natural to me to allow my child to be hurt so I will restrict freedom. If things are at risk following warnings it's natural for me to remove them to protect them not to let them get damaged. I don't shout, I just state what will happen and then leave DC to work it out.

Showing anger or disappointment is a natural consequence- that doesn't have to involve yelling or violence but can include calmly explaining your own feelings.

The thing is, I wouldn't do either of those road examples. I take a 3 step approach. Fun mummy glosses over it, instructional mummy sets a behaviour wxpectation and consequence, possibly a follow up reminder if its minor. Parent mummy resolves the matter.

For the road, I would first try and just make a game of walking in a straight line, or, if it was coming up tona big road, I'd be getting down to explain why its important to walk safely now and explain that we are going to the park or whatever so they know when the next opportunity to run and play is. If there was no result, I would have been down on the level, saying that I need to be really clear about what the behaviour expectation is and it isn't a choice. If they don't do it, they will be carried/go home depending what's in your remit.

And i would have taken the nice cup in a similar 3 step approach as the road.

1. Whoops, let's move this here so it doesn't get broken. Fun mummy.
2. X, I've asked you to keep the cup in the middle of the table please so that it doesn't get knocked over and break, please move it back or it will need to go away. Instructional mummy.
3. Mummy takes cup and swaps it with opening don't care about. Parent mummy.

I have never been nasty or aggressive to my child. Time out is a perfectly reasonable consequence of refusing to listen. I have seen plenty of soft parenting where the child ends up bouncing on sofas because parents won't remove them from the situation and saying no thank you doesn't get through.

It sounds like you parent in a very similar way to me, OP. I think some of it comes with age. So at 4/5 my DS wasn’t that fussed by “if it gets broken it isn’t being replaced.” Now at 8, he is. And now he’s older, the consequence is spelled out more to him in the broader sense - so for example, a chair got broken in the living room because he was jumping on it, after being asked not to repeatedly, and the likely outcome being explained.

I’m a bit strapped for cash, so I explained - calmly, but making it clear I was very upset and disappointed- that the cost of the repair, would mean we wouldn’t be able to do our monthly “treat” day out in order to pay for it- which did drive the message home and jumping on furniture is now (with one or two forgetful moments!) not happening.

Sadly this is also a “punishment” for me- because I look forward to that shared treat!- but I do strongly feel that this way of parenting is likely to teach him the best life lessons.

Time outs don’t really teach anything IMO, if out of context. Taking things away feels random and spiteful (unless it’s linked to a specific consequence, eg not showing care for that item). Excessive shouting (I don’t mean the odd shout, I mean continuous shouting) and smacking just read to me as vengeful. They’re not disciplining a child- they’re symptoms ofundisciplined adults showing they can’t control their emotions! So natural consequences is what’s left 🤷‍♀️

But you do have to be consistent, willing to put the time into explaining, able to control the often understandable initial instinct to go nuclear, and you do have to follow through and hold the boundary - even when it’s inconvenient. I don’t think that that’s namby pamby at all!

Absolutely this. Or, if you like, the "natural consequence" is that Mummy gets really cross with them and they are sufficiently scared of that happening to be more careful in the future. What used to be called "parenting".