To think the 2 tier GCSE system is wrong

I would like to know this too please.

My daughter is in year 13 now but sat the foundation paper. She improved significantly in the months before the exam and asked to sit the higher paper. School said no. So she sat the foundation paper and got a 5 (she actually nearly got 100%). When she started year 12 she asked to resist her exam (along with the ones that hadn't passed), but did the higher paper instead. She ended up getting a 7 and is now doing A-Level maths! I do think they should have let her sit the higher paper originally as she was getting great marks in all her mocks.

What % do you need to get a 5 in the foundation maths gcse?

I mentioned this and I agree it's something to think about – yes some university courses require a grade 6 in maths. So I guess it's something to check out if a student might be able to achieve a 6.

Otherwise tho I honestly cannot see how it matters. I mean if a student is 4/5 borderline. Obviously if a student is on track for a 7 then they should take H. If a student is looking at Oxford or LSE, where a grade 7 might be important, I would hope they would be sitting H anyway.

But (for example), DS2, bright but a bit lazy if not interested, took Spanish GCSE and got a 6. They would probably not have let him take F tbh as I am sure he could have got a 7 with some work. But icl, if he had a 7, the 6 he has, or a 5 from sitting F, it would make absolutely no difference to him. He had no intention of taking MFL for A level; the grade did not impact his uni choice at all and I highly doubt that it will ever come up in any way in future job interviews.

It makes a difference because lots of university courses, especially in the sciences/accounting, require a minimum of a 6 in maths.

In my DC’s school only top set did the higher paper.

Maths used to have 3 levels, Higher, Intermediate and Foundation but it was not possible to get a Pass grade on the Foundation paper, hence it changed to Higher and Foundation. The Pass grades are available on both levels but obviously the top grades are only available on the Higher paper.

We looked at a foundation paper at the start of year 10 as the teacher wanted us to compare papers. The foundation tier was like year 6 sats. We were asking the teacher stupid questions as we were over complicating simple concepts like calculating the area of a rectangle.

I did my GCSEs in 1989 and it was same then. I felt I was borderline child even though I was in top set Maths and after discussion with my teacher went to the foundation paper. Even now I don't know why my teacher didn't encourage/push me to do higher. Higher was grade A-C and realistically if I had not gained the C and got a D or lower I would need to have done retakes anyway if I'd wanted to do A levels.
Most futher education needs grade 4 or above in maths so same thing applies really,
Also I don't think they need to decide until they are entered into the exam nearer the time?

Grade bands possibly different around 1997
I think higher paper was A*-D and lower paper was B to G

I should know that as we had parents evening last night! Although honestly it didn't occur to me to ask, my two are already not doing the Lit. part as it's too much for them. Just hoping they actually pass the Lang. section.

I didn't know about MFL though and one of mine is doing French - unfortunately we didn't get to see his teacher. He got a 1 though in mocks :(

Genuinely interested in why?

@LazyArsedMagician sadly no tiers in English, all students have to sit the same, challenging exam.

Tiering in MFL tho.

I've always disagreed with it.

I don't think it's unfair I think it's just the range of ability that makes it hard and they need to have a deadline somewhere.

My 2 DC are completely different when it comes to maths.

Ds just gets it (loves it in fact) and is also doing further maths so is absolutely doing the higher paper. Predicted a 9.

I was looking at his work the other day and thought there is just no way in a million years that can foresee dd doing the maths ds is, so I anticipate for her she will do the foundation paper. Which will give her the opportunity to show her ability across a range of areas.

If there was just one level it would need to be very very long to enable children at both ends to shows their abilities to differentiate their grades

Yes, so if you want to sit the November 2025 sitting, you need to have turned 16 by August 2025 which means that you can't sit it in Y11 unless you have been kept down a year.

This was to attempt to restrict it to resits.

I did intermediate maths in 1996 and got a B, I think @MargaretThursday is misremembering. I'm sure it was Higher A-C, Intermediate B-D (?), don't remember Foundation. I just recall I could easily get the B but failed the Higher paper consistently.

And I promise, I do have a B grade Maths GCSE!

I don't really understand what your problem is. Has she not done any mocks or anything yet? You just say she's 'borderline' which suggests she can reliably get a 3/4 but if pushed could get higher?

I mean, when I did my GCSEs I did the lower maths paper which had a max score of B. I consistently aced those papers and failed the highers. She will have had the same unless your school are just not doing practice papers?

What does she want to do after GCSEs? A Levels? How competitive is the school? Or college? If she doesn't want to do any core subjects (as I understand it, it's only maths, science and English that offer the tiered subjects) then does it matter if she gets an easy 4 instead of scraping a 4?

What have her teachers advised? Surely you've had at least a couple of conversations about GCSEs? We had our second parents evening yesterday - my boys got 1s and 2s across the board, with 3-3 for science, so their teachers are working really hard to get them into the 3-4 bracket for most. Could they get a 4-4 in science? Possibly. Would I push them into doing the higher paper? Absolutely not.

I did the intermediate tier in 2006 and i got a b. The foundation paper went up to a d and the higher paper covered the a grades if i have remembered correctly.

The November series for Maths and English Language is for any child aged 16 or over on 31st August of that year, it's not just for resits.

No because they are on the same day. And there is a certain amount of overlap.

Those who say "add an extra H paper" – I mean I do see what you mean but tbh I agree with those who say it’s a bit much to expect someone who is working at 8/9 in maths to tackle the very simple (to them) questions on the F maths paper – they risk making silly mistakes, getting fed up with it and generally not doing their best. We know they can manage those questions – let's challenge them with these harder ones. But these students for whom maths is a challenge - let’s support them with a more accessible exam.

It is interesting that some teachers on here are against the tiering – but some (inc me! and others tho) are in favour of it.

It was the same when i was at school but there were 3 tiers in maths. This was good for me as i would have found the foundation tier would have been too easy. I would have frozen if i had taken the higher tier.

It is possible to get a grade 2 or 3 of course; but not on the higher tier paper. That's only for maths, science and MFL tho - and in those subjects you can gain a1/2/3/4/5 on the F paper.

Edit: apologies I think the grade 3 is possible on maths and science H tier - not sure if that was a Covid thing tho or if it still stands.

Hey @countingdaysuntilretirement I agree with lots of posts on here but wanted to add my own PoV. Mainly tho, what is it that you are so worried about? Why do you think the tiering is unfair? You say it will limit her options, but it really will not. If she is looking at A level then she should be working at grade 6/7 anyway. If she just needs a pass in maths to move forward, the F tier is fine, if that is right for her.

Here’s the thing – F and H tiers are a good thing. The overlap is grades 4 and 5. If a student is a 5 at best, they should take F. It’s a lot easier and more accessible (my subject is MFL but it’s the same for maths and science) so they are actually more likely to feel confident which will boost their exam ability for sure (imagine an exam where you can only do a quarter of the questions).

If a student is a pretty solid grade 6 then they should do H. If they drop a grade then they will still get a 5. If they have a mare and drop two grades then they still get a 4. If a student is not likely to get a 4, in other words if they might do badly enough to get a grade 1 or 2, they should emphatically be doing the F paper if available (unfortunately on most exams it is not).

Teachers will know btw what grade a student is working at, even if the student is unsure.

If a student is a good 5/6 on their best day then IMHO it should be up to them. They should try past papers at both tiers (easy to do) and see what they think. Would they rather have an easier ride to a safe 5 (I have known plenty of pragmatic students take this option, esp in MFL, and why not?) or do they really have hopes of a 6 and want to take H? I’m for playing it safe tbh as I cannot see any massive benefit of a 6 over a 5. Grade 6 in maths and MFL (esp if a “maybe” 6) is not good enough for A level, and a grade 5 on your list of GCSEs (instead of a 6) is going to make zero difference going forward. Pretty much anyway – I know some unis ask for a 6 in maths as a general entry requirement, so I guess that’s worth considering.

And yy the GCSE certificate just states the grade, not which tier you took.

As others say, only maths, science and MFL exams are tiered; actually I think this is a massive issue for English (no tiers), where the paper is almost inaccessible for some weaker candidates, rather than the tiers in maths and MFL being an issue.

Channel Islands

It can depend on the content covered in the classes. If the PP DS class hadn’t covered the higher content then him sitting the higher paper would have disadvantaged him. In your DC classes they had covered the higher content and saw that your DC were able to sit the higher paper.