To think the 2 tier GCSE system is wrong

Schools describe a 5 as a "strong pass" and 4 as a "standard pass" in core subjects like Maths and English.

A "strong pass" sounds good to me!

Then their Progress 8 score must be terrible?

But I don't see why someone entered for the higher who does badly will end up with a U rather than a 1 or 2 if they get enough marks for the lower grades.

A grade 1 or 2 is about as useful as ungraded tbh, you'd be resitting either way (if you wanted to demonstrate a GCSE in that subject). Have you got a parents evening coming up? Can you speak to the teachers of the subjects you are concerned about?

Our school is only interested in the core subject pass rate of 4 & 5.

This isn't true, it is in the school's benefit for the league tables for every child to get a high a grade as possible (or at least it was until this cohort who didn't sit SATs so there is no way to measure their progress).

School targets are meaningless, no one else measures against them.

Surely if you had such a low score at ,GCSE Maths then you'd be unlikely to be doing A levels never mind a degree in subjects that require it.

The problem that this can cause is the schools target is a 4, so if you have a child comfortably sitting on a 5 our school won't entertain any pushing for higher grades, they are underfunded so push all their efforts into the kids who will cause them to miss their target.
The middle of the road kids with potential are left to get on with it.

This isn't all subjects. English is just a one tier entry so everyone sits the same paper.

And teachers aren't always right, so students can be disadvantaged.

I don't like the system.

to hear that this late in the day and that she could have a bad day and end up with nothing in some subjects is particularly scary.

@countingdaysuntilretirement but as lots of people have said, that won’t or shouldn’t happen. If she is going to achieve below a 3 (which is in fact the lowest level for the H paper, in MFL as well as I see) then she should certainly not be taking H. Higher tier papers are for candidates who stand a good chance of achieving a 6. If that's not her then she will be advised to take foundation.

Is she taking MFL? Is she taking triple science? If not then the H/F tiers only apply for three of her GCSEs anyway.

That's good that you are going to follow the teacher’s advice @countingdaysuntilretirement

I’m still not sure why this is scary, unless you mean that the prospect of your DC sitting GCSEs is scary – as in it’s such a lot of work. I agree with you there.

But there’s no need to be scared about her taking foundation maths. It won’t close any doors for her – by the sound of it anyway (the main door it closes is maths A level and I infer that's not on her list anyway).

Do you after reading the thread at least understand the system of H/F papers a bit better? I heartily wish there was a F paper for English language at least.

Best of luck to your DD.

I think the opposite and that there should be a foundation paper for English too.
There's enough of an overlap (being able to get a 4/ 5 on both papers) that teachers can usually pick the appropriate one for each student.
The only issue is the bright students who fail to do any work for Y10 or their mocks. They have targets of 6, get Us when they take the Higher mock and it's very difficult to justify entering them for higher tier. Yet, entering them for foundation automatically means they cannot achieve their target grade.
Exam certificates do not state the tier taken.

Surely you just take the higher one and if you get ungraded then you take the easier paper??

Thank you
Dd needs a 5 to access preferred post 16 options and finds the F paper much easier
Got a 4+ on the Higher mock last month
I think we will ask for her to sit the F paper

I don’t think @countingdaysuntilretirement has clarified what she means by saying her DD is borderline btw. And “most” is a bit disingenuous – we are talking a max of five GCSEs if she does an MFL and triple science. It could be as few as three.

If she is genuinely flipping between a 5 and a 6 then I think she should look at the papers to see what they are like (MFL for sure is very very different between H and F) and see what she thinks, along with asking her teachers. It might be worth taking H paper, though I think you need to look at why and what end it will serve (and I take note of the “unis that need a 6 in maths” concern for sure).

If by “borderline” the OP means just about getting a 4, maybe a 5 on her best day, then F is deffo the badger.

It might be good if you look at past papers for both. The maths foundation and higher tier papers are totally different. The foundation is all about learning the maths you need for life. Higher level is all academic mathematics that you would never use in normal life in a million years.

If a 5 is likely then I would definitely be aiming to do the foundation paper, just because the learning would be so valuable for giving life skills.

According to the grade boundaries document you can get anything down to a 3 in the higher level. It's only 1 and 2 that they don't award.

https://qualifications.pearson.com/content/dam/pdf/Support/Grade-boundaries/GCSE/2311-gcse-9-1-notional-component-grade-boundaries.pdf

Last year for edexcel you needed just over 73%
For AQA it was just over 77.5%

As you see it is quite a high percentage – but the thing is the questions are a lot more accessible. The ability to get a grade 5 is supposed to be in parity across H and F tiers (which must be a challenge). But how much more appealing to go into an exam and be able to complete most of it, as compared to maybe a third of the H paper.

But in practical terms there surely isn’t much difference between a U and a 1/2? It’s not a pass either way.

A U is the only fail grade, a grade 1, 2 and 3 are GCSE level 1 passes.

They are equivalent to old CSE passes and old CSE passes weren't considered 'fails'.

But in practical terms there surely isn’t much difference between a U and a 1/2? It’s not a pass either way. If there’s a possibility she might get higher than a 5, wouldn’t the higher paper be worth a chance?

Interesting what past posters say about November exams being resits only. I invigilate at a local secondary school and they run a November session for maths that’s taken by about a third of the year 11s - definitely not resits. The able ones do higher tier then go on to do further maths in the summer sitting (or presumably retake the regular paper if it didn’t go well) and the less able do foundation and then have the option to take the higher in the summer. It’s a private school, so maybe that's the difference.

Re grade boundaries, looking at Edexcel maths from last year, to get a 5 in Foundation required 73% and a 5 in Higher 30%.

The grade boundaries will vary between different exam boards. The information will be on their websites (probably the pass marks rather than % though)