To think the 2 tier GCSE system is wrong

And Ofsted also look at Progress 8 so they might be able to pull the wool over parents' eyes, but come inspection day it will definitely be noted.

If a school chooses to highlight its headline outcomes over its progress 8 data in its publicity then it either has poor progress data or doesn’t trust parents to understand P8. Within education communities progress measures are everything. Schools who fixate on their 4+ or 5+ outcomes will by definition underserve their pupils at both the highest and the lowest levels.

This. I had no knowledge of progress 8 scores until recently. Our school heavily pushes it's grade percentage on 4/5 pass rates at open evening etc

True but having recently had to look at schools it seems very few care about the progress 8 scores. The ones that do seem to have better ‘value add’ for their higher achieving children then those that don’t. Obviously this might just be in the area I was looking at.

182 out of 240 on foundation v 79/240 on higher it looks like (for Edexcel) - if you google it all comes up (grade boundaries - they do change year on year though). Like MFL though, most of the content would be inaccessible for some pupils on higher. I haven't looked at maths, but MFL are worlds apart

Given that only a grade 4/5 counts, the fact that it's all the same exam is a nonsense anyway. You're right, they may as well go back to O level and CSE.

Or even better do away with them altogether and just have a numeracy and literacy test and then do A levels/BTEC/whatever else as a leaving certificate at 18.

I hate to say it but the missing out on a 1/2/3 really doesn't matter- if they don't get a 4 its likely they'll need to resit anyway. I can't think of anything where having 1/2/3 counts for anything other than a measure of how far you are from getting to a 4.

I wonder if colleges requiring a 6 re saying that so the student has taken the higher paper?

BTW the lower grades are not a fail or equivalent to a U, they are a level 1 pass which allows a student on to a level 2 course at college.

In your position I would check very carefully that she has been properly assessed for exam access arrangements and that she is definitely receiving all of the adjustments that she is entitled to in all of her mocks. This is urgent as the deadline is in March and the assessments have to be carried out by a specialist teacher. The arrangements might include extra time if she has processing difficulties, rest breaks, a separate room.

If, with all of these appropriate adjustments, she is still freezing in exams and falling off the bottom of the Higher paper then I'm afraid there is simply nothing to be discussed as it would be unethical to enter her for the Higher paper.

You should go on YouTube and google “which tier to choose, higher or foundation” there are teachers creating content on this topic who talk through the pros and cons. The higher tier grade boundaries are lower to achieve a 5 or 4, you need roughly around 40%. If you know the exam board, google the 2024 grade boundaries to get a better idea. I heard of a lot of students resitting maths nov 2024, sitting the higher paper, who had previously entered the foundation in June 2024, and they achieved their grades more easily. It’s a bit late for the school to not have made this decision though, as the higher content should have been being taught already. If she has not been taught the higher content in maths, she should not consider sitting the higher paper.

With mock papers most children get pretty consistent results so the teachers can pick the best option for the child. Not many children are will have a range of a 3 to a 6 in a subject depending on how they're feeling on the day. That's a big difference in ability.

It will be true of some though, and it will be best to speak to the teacher and do some mocks of each type to see which suits her best.

You used to be able to mix foundation & higher for MFL & could get a grade B with that. But they got rid of that which is a shame as some students are good at reading but find the speaking harder for example.

Yes @converseandjeans you could do a H paper for reading and a F paper for listening for example, and they would average it out. Tho the speaking and writing were CA so they were not tiered as they were self-setting if that makes sense. But I had a student once who wrote amazing controlled assessments, really excellent and error-free, and yet collapsed in an exam room, so they took F reading and listening (their choice, for confidence reasons) and yes, ended up with a B overall.

Hmm it’s tricky, but I do think if there’s a risk of someone not being able to obtain a 4, they really shouldn’t be taking the higher paper.

Not all subjects have higher & foundation - pretty sure it's just maths, science & MFL.

It would be the teacher & Head of Department who decide & not really the parent. It would be based on mocks & usually those who get 6 or above in mocks would do higher.

To do maths, science or MFL at A level they would really need to be grade 7 or above as they would find it too hard otherwise. I think some schools allow a grade 6 for some subjects.

You used to be able to mix foundation & higher for MFL & could get a grade B with that. But they got rid of that which is a shame as some students are good at reading but find the speaking harder for example.

This is pretty poor on the school’s part if you are sure that it is the case.

Nope, just F and H tier.

I very much agree with you tho, a child who is going to drop from a strong 5/possible 6 (which is the lowest level ability that should be sitting H tier) to a 2 has got other problems tbh. In fact I have never come across such a student.

It's only P8 that's been paused for 2025 and 2026, there will still be Attainment 8 data released. It'll be interesting to see the differences once A8 comes out, as there won't be any way to deflect scrutiny where a huge number of the cohort would have been excluded from P8 calculations - some places that have a large number of students who weren't even in the UK at age 11 might see considerable increases, some might see a decrease. It certainly makes the needs of the entire cohort paramount.

And, of course, schools still need to monitor progress internally for these cohorts (it'll be calculated against school baseline assessments like CAT4s instead). I think that it'll be a bit of a shock if there's anybody left who believes that there will be no analysis applied to the 2025 and 2026 cohort outcomes - Data Managers are like Nature; both abhor a vacuum.

For others who don't know, though, there is no benefit to schools to have kids artificially limited to a lower grade - other than when it's actually making it easier for them to get the maximum grade they are realistically capable of.

Every point counts - an bald example would be that the one grade over expected in a single subject for 30 kids would just about balance out the results of the kid who had lifesaving surgery for a brain injury in year 8 and did amazingly well to get 3s in English and Maths instead of the 8s their baseline attainment indicated at age 11 (even with a DfE adjustment for extremely low attainment, the negative progress for somebody in that situation is significant).

An argument in favour of tiered papers is seen every single year - there are always a couple of kids who decide to go straight to the back of the paper, see the highest tariff questions and completely freak out. The only hope is that they do that (ignore all the things they've been taught about exam technique) at mock rather than decide for the first time to try it in the actual exams. With a single paper for everybody from a solid 8/9 to a 2/3 at best, that would be more likely to happen for a greater number of students - particularly in the subjects that require both the ability to decipher the meaning of a question and to hold specific knowledge and methods, such as in Mathematics, Science and languages.

I do think the triple/double science thing is a separate issue. There is no reason why a less able child cannot take triple science – especially as a) you can take F tier and b) you may be strong in one and weaker in another, and so you coudl get (say) 4 in bio and 8 in chem. That's not possible with double (tho it is tiered, but then you get 4-4 or 5-5 if you sit F tier).

What you describe is the way it is done in a lot of schools, but increasingly (from anecdata only!) triple is being offered as an option, so allocated the same time as doing double; the issue with this (see another thread on this board) is that this can then limit other choices.

It sounds as tho in the case you reference, some intervention by a parent might have helped. But in general, students are put in sets and that is a good thing; some exams are tiered and IMHO and that of a lot of ppl on here inc teachers, that is also a good thing. A student who will gain a 4 in German will have a useful and worthwhile qualification; but that student will find the F tier much more accessible which will boost their confidence and give them a much more positive feeling. That's a boost to their MH if ever I heard of one.

Unless she NEEDS that grade 6 Maths for her A level choices, it's better IMO to ace the foundation paper.

As PP have said, the higher paper is aimed at 7/8/9 students so most of it will be out of reach for a target 6 student. And that's an awful feeling to come away from an exam with.

The foundation paper will be "easy" for her for about 2/3 of the paper so she should smash a 5.

It's natural to want the grade 6, but if she's borderline, better to go for a safe 5 and come out of the exam with a "I've definitely done ok on that" feeling. And once she's at college, no-one will give two hoots about a 5 vs a 6 at GCSE.

My DD was in the same position. It's a shame the intermediate papers have been scrapped, as that would serve the grade 5/6 students better.

I don’t think it’s that much of a gamble really. It’s extremely unlikely that a child sitting a higher paper would have SUCH a bad day that they come out ungraded.

Apologies for not slogging through all 8 pages of this thread, but I remember there being three levels in core subjects - foundation, intermediate and higher. Is that not the case anymore?

As people have said most GCSEs don't have tiers anymore.

However I don't think most people realise (or would even believe) the difference in maths ability between top and bottom sets.

In our school set 5 Y11 (lowest group) are no where near as good at maths as Y7 set 1, and it's not because they don't try - plenty of the kids in set 5 work really hard every lesson, complete every homework, but just find maths really hard.

There is simply no way of having a sensible exam that caters for both these groups of students - in fact I would say ever with two tiers the foundation is too hard for the lowest set and the higher tier is not hard enough for the very brightest to show what they can do (other then the last 2/3 questions.)

Someone has a chip on their shoulder.

What does a crappy home life have to do with tiering?

Schools aren't making those decisions lightly. In a typical school, a child will have sat 3 mock exams before a final decision is made on what a suitable tier is. 3 chances to revise and apply their knowledge, in addition to end of topic tests every 4 or so weeks. We're still moving students between Higher and Foundation sets now based on the evidence we've collected and final decisions are made in March, after which extra fees have to be paid to move students. Frankly, if a student hasn't shown that they can sit a Higher paper by March, they are either not capable or have fully ignored the numerous conversations that take place before this.

I have mentored a number of borderline 4/5 students and there was a marked difference between the ones that put the work in and the ones that didn't. I have marked numerous mock papers that students have left mostly blank, not even attempting the questions, despite all the exam techniques taught. Not even tried. Teachers put on unpaid lunchtime revision for students who can't make it after school because they have to pick up siblings. They put on morning and after-school revision, providing food to entice students. They put on holiday revision sessions, often also for free (I now refuse to do the latter). You should see the protests from some students that they are being kept in school to revise for remaining exams during lesson time rather than being allowed "study leave" where they openly tell you they play on their PS all day. It's a sight to behold what happens in Y11 before and during exam time.

All the help and guidance is there and schools break their backs to help students achieve as well as they possibly can, including, I might add, a personal taxi service on the day of exams, where pastoral staff and the Head drive to their houses and personally ferry those students into school if they haven't got up in time for their exams.

So no need for excuses. Unless severe SEND is involved, those papers are piss-easy at Foundation level and the lower end of Higher Tier.

Whereas a child that struggles with maths or science sitting a paper that they can only answer 20% of is such a boost to self esteem. As is forcing the more able to spend years going over content they'd already mastered.

They're not bumped up if they underperform in the higher tier. They get a U, so that's something the school has to consider. I agree though, tiers of entry have gone in English and it takes the risk out.

That's the thing. I don't think the school has told them it's for the brighter students, but that's how the kids perceive it. And from what some parents tell me, it's not just these two. Let's be honest, what other reasoning is there for this division? Of course it has to do with setting. How else are they supposed to read it?

In one of these two schools they have extra English lessons instead of Science. This child is pretty good at English, and cannot understand why he's made to do extra English when, if anything, it's extra science he may benefit from. Neither can I.

My wider point is, in this age of crap MH in children, the wider setting/double tier system is not helping.