To think it’s not normal for kids to fight like this?

Apologies, I read it that you were more bothered about losing your day out rather than seeing it as a suitable consequence.

Just let get on with it. It’s what kids do. They’ll learn one way or another.

I don’t agree with a PP about the meltdowns. They don’t learn from or during meltdowns. Keep things calm, reduce the stress don’t ramp it up. Deescalate. Remove him from the incident and do something else. Talk about how to behave before things happen not after.

I used to prime mine ahead of whatever wa happening. “Right, we’re having a Disney film on, you are going to snuggle up with your cushion and have a rest while you’re watching. Stay calm and When Song X comes on, I’ll bring you some popcorn”

You're still making excuses!

You're trying to teach him consequences. Of course he'll cry and try to run off, because he didn't want those consequences. He's throwing a tantrum and kicking off and he'll continue to do that until you break it. Your method of dealing with it means the time out itself doesn't escalate, but it's not working in preventing the original behaviour is it?

If the kids needing supervision and control when you're doing your chores means you don't all get to go out and do special things one day.....well that's a perfect consequence! "Now kids, you messed about so much and caused so much trouble when Mummy was trying to dust that we now don't have time to go to the play centre"...next day "Remember yesterday when we couldn't go to the play centre? Well today if you behave and help Mummy with the dusting then we get to go out and do something special".

I've got AuDHD twin girls (combined ADHD, so next level hyperactivity!) and I never 'rough-housed' with either, but I did have an indoor trampoline, pull up bar with swing/ladder/rings/rope attachments (I think it was called a Gorilla indoor gym) and gymnastics bar so they could keep active whenever needed over the years (to compensate for my physical disabilities, lockdown, our tiny back yard etc). I bought them a punch bag recently, as it has helped reduce twin 1's angry outbursts.
I was very firm around no hitting, although of course it's happened over the years.
I dunno, but maybe because I've always found different outlets for their energy and never made a game of fighting, maybe that's why they've never scrapped.
I'm probably firmer than a lot of parents, but I've never found the "kind girls use kind hands" (slightly feeble imo) stance has worked with my 2.

Mine are 11, 9 and 6, and honestly they are still like this now. I can’t get anything done without them fighting (mainly down to the 6 year old, he is full of beans all the time and just wants his sisters to play/react to him so he winds them up). Literally by the time I’m sat down for a wee they’re screaming at each other!! None of mine have ever played in their rooms upstairs either, even though I have reassured them the others are not allowed in their personal space. It’s like they want to be together all the time but also can’t stand each other 😂. I’ve just introduced a new rule where if anyone says the word ‘stop’ then the other must immediately stop what they’re doing (as it can be hard for the youngest to understand when his sisters are play fighting or actually not interested and retaliating because they want him to leave them alone). If it doesn’t stop immediately then there’s a consequence (5 mins time out or whatever).

When he was 3 i genuinely would take him to the toilet with me and lock him in to protect the girls, but then he was also a runner/climber so god knows what he would get up to if left alone!

Same applies.
Most 5 yr olds need someone to tidy u p with them.

To me it sounds like you're just making to many excuses...

"If I do XYZ it'll mean I have to spend my time constantly stopping him" So keep constantly stopping him. He needs to learn.

"If I put him in time out it's just a battle of wills".....of course it is, but you're the parent, you're in charge, and so YOU need to be winning that battle. Dont bail just because it's difficult. If he knows you'll keel then he'll carry on battling until you do.

It sounds like you're just finding it too much like hard work controlling his behaviour. Its hard. It's difficult. But you need to him to know he can't just do what HE wants, else you're going to have an absolute arsehole on your hands in 10 years time.

Fwiw I agree with you the rough play is the problem and not the solution. Everyone I know with a dad who does this with a boy has ended up with a boy who is very physical in their play and other children don’t always like it. So no immediate solutions but cutting down on it might help.

I agree with the posters saying that, at the moment, they need to be supervised and that means you can't get on with the housework unless one or both of them is with you. Mine went through a phase like this when I couldn't leave them together, I had to be close by or DC3 would hit DC2. It's really irritating, hopefully it won't last too long, but for the moment that's how it is.

We have 4 (now adults). The eldest and second fought loads, as did second and third. Third and fourth got on a treat and still do. When everyone was at home there was usually somebody arguing, winding somebody up or fighting. Exhausting but it does pass.

my eldest is terrible she’ll tidy if you do it with or, or basically if there’s a threat but otherwise she just won’t.

Well, she's 5. That doesn't make her "terrible", it makes her a typical child.

This, and your other comment about not being able to leave them unsupervised, suggests to me you are expecting a bit much from them.

I brainwashed mine a bit. When youngest was born they "brought a present" (Peppa pig books, it didn't break the bank!) All kind interactions rewarded with attention and positive praise. If eldest said before dinner "can u have a yoghurt" I'd say no, wait for dinner. If eldest said "can me and dc2 have a yoghurt" I'd say yes. I didn't tell them I was doing that or turn a no to a yes. Just a sort of love bombing (with a good motive!)
The other thing I have always done is separate time with a parent. Luckily they both love an activity the other hates so no jealousy about the actual activity. And they each know that their turn will come.
My husband has scars from fighting with his brother so was keen not to repeat that (they get on well in adulthood after a few wilderness years in late teens / early 20s).
The important thing with wind up merchants is not to reward the behaviour with attention. Heap attention on the other one at that point!

This is what I had to do with mine at one point. “If you can’t be trusted to play nicely when I’m not there then you’ll need to be where I am so I can watch you. We’ll try again in a few minutes.” At times he was literally made to hold my hand while I “dusted” with the other!

Yes it’s annoying, yes you get less done, but that’s how it is. Mine learnt fairly quickly that it was extremely boring and stopped being a pita to their sibling. They were probably closer to age four or five though - at two and three they have limited impulse control and you might just have to constantly supervise.

We also spent minimal time in the house - didn’t care about cleaning or whatever, we went out. Anywhere.

Get rid of screens and encourage them to help with the housework. There are lots of things they can do.

They can pair the socks while you fold the laundry, they can clear the table while you wash up, they can dust while you hoover etc. Get them working together as a team. "Can you two finish your job before mummy finishes hers?"

If you need to go to the toilets set a task that will keep them busy for a few minutes (can you clean all the door handles/light switches/skirting boards? I get my 4 year old to do these things regularly, not because I have high standards for my light switches, but because it is a task that requires zero supervision and if he is busy doing that he isn't busy bringing chaos to another area of the house!

I have 2 boys now 9 and 6 and we've been through lots.

So 2 things :

I would ensure they are out of the house ideally for a walk, local playground by 11am at the very latest. I find that helped enormously.

I reiterated 1000 times, no heads and no stomach, which they still adhere to 99.9%
Of the time and understand how that can be very Serious. This means I don't feel quite as activated when they fight as I would imagine damaged kidneys etc. I explained why to them with honesty ie importance of organs and the brain which helped them To understand.

In all honesty it's hard - I just would take one upstairs with me when I was doing something upstairs as
They really could t be left alone together
And I think we are still in it unfortunately but my eldest is v reactive.

I just made she my husband
And I had time out and recovery from the day.

In all honestly my 83 year old dad pointed out in the old days children, especially boys were
Controlled by violence and beatings into submissive behaviour. Quite rightly and thankfully we don't do that anymore but it does make things more challenging as the fighting still Continues.

Genuinely exercise or outdoors (in the morning) was the only way for me for a few years.

Good luck - it's hard !