Dentist annual salary??

If you want to know why dentists can no longer afford to work on the NHS look at what it pays .

Take a band two treatment , which involves check up , x rays (if needed) , treatment of gum disease ,extractions and fillings etc which will require a minimum of two visits taking a minimum of 40 minutes more if more than one filling , extraction etc .

In England patient will pay £73.20 the government will, on average pay £9.80 on top. So to cover all the practice expenses , wages, training , equipment, consumables etc most practices will have to earn £140 to £200 plus an hour per room.

The £84 earned has to cover all of this and pay the dentist. In general after paying the practice expenses the dentist will earn 1/3 of this ie £28 for at least 40 minutes work and possibly for many hours work. However this also has to cover the dentists indemnity , registration costs , cpd , holidays, sickness , training courses etc. so a dentist working in mostly NHS work will work January to April just to cover their personal costs before they start to earn anything.

Some treatments like crowns, bridges , dentures the laboratory costs are more than a practice gets in on fees so the practice is , effectively , paying to treat someone.

Add to this dental inflation is running at least 10% and last years fee rise was just over 4% , was due in April last year , it represents yet another fee cut but still hasn’t been paid from April last year.

To put into context the last year I , a very experienced and highly qualified dentist , worked almost exclusively in the NHS I earned £28,000 which is less than a newly qualified dental therapist. A friend , a practice owner , left the NHS after they earned £17,000 in a year.

Add to this NHS dentists in England and Wales cannot charge for missed appointments and up to 40% of all new NHS dental appointments are failed. The practice expenses still have to be paid but no income is earned.

Actually again re state dental services this is not true.

If we take our near neighbour , Ireland , where dental treatment is more expensive than the U.K. and dental tourism , where people cross to NI for treatment is common , they have, in theory , a very,very restricted free service for children .

However in common with the U.K. it has collapsed , even though it is far less comprehensive than NHS dentistry , because Irish dentists cannot be found to provide it as it has become uneconomic to provide. This in a country where indemnity, registration and regulation is far,far cheaper and which does not have the litigation problem of U.K. dentists .
https://www.newstalk.com/news/hse-dental-service-for-children-has-collapsed-1512782

As the average annual wage in Portugal is €11,000 or £9,200 ish compared to £34,963 in the U.K. , the average Portuguese national will find dental treatment as comparably expensive as a U.K. resident and the rates of Portuguese visiting dentist are comparable to U.K. https://www.expatica.com/pt/healthcare/healthcare-services/dentists-in-portugal-1125051/

Of course they do. What an odd thing to say as I was just expressing surprise at this being so much a factor in dentistry. I am in a job myself with plenty of stress etc and not far above min wage .

I have been involved in teaching and know what most of my trainees have earned over the last few years and what they earn now. None of them even come close to these sort of figures , even a few years after qualifying.

As dentists are self employed what they are offered is pretty meaningless because most of it is possible gross earnings . The practice will take 50 to 70% to cover their expenses , the dentist then has to pay expenses out of what they get like lab fees, hygienist fees , then there are the indemnity , registration , cpd expenses , various insurances , then finally tax.

This diagram explains very well the trajectory of dental earnings , as you get more experienced and do more courses you earn more , then start to slow down in your 50s as your body etc starts to give up.

@Lollygaggle
"Your friends daughter is way above what I would recognise as an average dentists earnings , particularly so young and early in their career. They earn almost double what I would expect of a practice owner.

These figures represent more of what I would recognise as indicative earnings www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/dentist-salary-SRCH_KO0,7.htm

I am speaking as someone who only (just) paid higher rate tax when I was working four jobs including weekends and evenings as a very experienced dentist who also did some teaching."

I am not professing to be hugely knowledgeable. It does surprise me the Glassdoor averages given the little I know and conversations with parents of those young dentists. I wonder if that is Influenced by a lot being part time? It just doesn't seem to align with the offers the younger dentist I knew got in the first couple of years post grad which was well above what's quoted...and we are Yorkshire, not London. But yes, their work is mostly private so maybe that's the difference

it seems as though lots of people are wanting to become dentists lately including a friend of mine. She is thinking of a complete career change as there's "so much money" to be made in it.

Do these 'lots of people' have excellent science A levels? Getting into dental school is extremely competitive and then doing the actual 5 year course is hard-very similar to med school. Plus getting £70k+ worth of debt and not earning whilst you're training!

One of my cousin's was a dentist in Northern Ireland and I agree, it's extremely stressful. His back is knackered. He went into maxillofacial after this which sounds worse but he loved it.
My old UK dentist in London was fantastic but quit due to burnout and ditto his partner who developed all sorts of autoimmune issues. My private dentist (practice owner) seems to take it all in his stride but says it's very stressful. He does have some flash cars though! Apparently dentists can be prone to high mercury levels.

Your own link shows that Germany is cheaper e.g look at the costs per filling 80 to 100 euros, UK private is £180 to £360.

2008 report? nope, my own research based on the £3k estimate i was given by a dentist in the UK.

i couldn't find a single country in Europe that even matched the UK, let alone more expensive.
France though did come up as having quite significant dentist shortages but still much cheaper than UK.

When/if i need more work, it'll be in Portugal.

Also, in most European countries, dentistry is available under their own health services, esp for children.

Try finding a dentist who will treat you under the NHS as a new patient.

Yes i do agree on the costs we have in the UK.

Your friends daughter is way above what I would recognise as an average dentists earnings , particularly so young and early in their career. They earn almost double what I would expect of a practice owner.

These figures represent more of what I would recognise as indicative earnings https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/dentist-salary-SRCH_KO0,7.htm

I am speaking as someone who only (just) paid higher rate tax when I was working four jobs including weekends and evenings as a very experienced dentist who also did some teaching.

Actually U.K. is not most expensive in Europe , by a long chalk. This “fact” is based on lazy reporting of a 2008 research on the cost of a filling in an 11 year old child in a community clinic (ie a clinic run to treat special needs children and adults etc) . The cost came up as over £100 a filling because these clinics treat the most difficult physical and mental impairments and have specialised equipment , sedation facilities etc. Many European countries do not have the widespread equivalent of the community clinic .

For comparison German costs https://germanpedia.com/dental-treatment-cost-germany/#:~:text=In%20Germany%2C%20professional%20teeth%20cleaning,€%20per%20annum%20for%20it.

There is massive dental tourism in Ireland where hey travel across the border to Northern Ireland where dentistry is a half or more cheaper in many cases.

It costs from from from £160 to over £200 an hour to run just one room in a dental surgery. The NHS pays nothing to the costs just what is paid to the dentist for costs. In the U.K. the average amount spent per patient treated per year in NHS dentistry was around £39 ish.

To put that into context when the government opened UDCs (urgent care centres) where all costs were paid by the NHS and the staff were employed the cost of an average course of treatment (and this was some years ago) was £450.

Most practices on top of their clinical duties the dentists run and manage the practice , doing everything from minor repairs ,DIY to paperwork in the evenings and weekends unpaid as opposed to clinics where someone is employed to do these things or protected time is paid .

My friend is a dental nurse, earns next to nothing and has all the health issues with her back, varicose veins from standing all the time etc. She said she would never want to be a dentist though because of all the pressure. I also know a couple who own a dentist practice private only and they are absolutely loaded.

Many jobs have stress, pressure and health issues and earn min wage.

Interesting thread. A lot more pressure and health issues than I would have expected.

I know of two friends with daughters who are dentists. First is now 7years post grad and is earning 2-250k per annum. Does only small amounts of NHS work, mainly for children. Other is 2-3 years post grad but I know she had several offers which were competing and she was very quickly on £60k. I think she must be on at least double that now given her lifestyle and car she drives.

it is indicative though that state provided dentistry is in it’s knees and many dentists now have very little NHS work as they won’t do it. All the dentists around where I live are private except some will do limited work for children

I can see how it's physically hard. Last month I had a molar extraction that required the poor dentist to wrangle with it for around 40 minutes. She was exhausted afterwards.

How on earth are you going to talk to your nurse and reassure your patient with ear plugs in? This does not seem realistic

Surely though thats down to you paying them '00s perhaps '000s of pounds?

I ve just had 3k worth of RC and fillings, over many appointments, of course she was respectful etc.

However, i had many reasons to be in NHS hospitals, in different trusts, over the years, both as a patient and visitor, my DD works in the NHS too and i ve never met an arrogant Dr/Consultant or for that matter a nurse or HCA.

I'm respectful to them and they in turn are respectful back.

Apparently, running a dental practice in the UK is extremely expensive, hence why we have the most expensive dental costs in all of Europe, i certainly don't begrudge them a decent salary but dentistry does need to come back under the NHS, though who pays for this???

It’s actually hard to get a place to study dentistry (and medicine) too. I am in some Uni groups as I have kids that age and it’s all so competitive for the places on offer.

This is true, I’ve had 2 conscious operations myself come to think of it - one I wasn’t expecting, thought it was just a check up and ended up having something cut out of my vag 😂

virtually no other medical professional does routine surgery on conscious patients

What? That’s just not true. Lots of doctors do routine surgery on conscious patients- GPs do, general surgeons, dermatologists, plastic surgeons, ophthalmic surgeons, ENT surgeons, gynaecologists etc etc etc

The only dentist I know has been sued (the client didn’t win thankfully), in her 20s so plenty of scope for that to happen again through her career. So it tracks that that’s a common occurrence!
Sounds like hell, sounds stupid but never considered the repetitive strain etc aspect!
I will say though, if my (non-dentistry) clients don’t show up and haven’t let us know within 24 hours, then they get charged the full amount. Dentists should have the same policy surely! They send out enough reminders, people have chance to not just forget .

Lolly writes well re the miserable side to it.

I am over 70. In my peer group, of maybe 40 couples, the only ones where the wife did not work, and lived a very luxurious lifestyle, the DH was a dentist. There are 3 retired dentists in the group. With the move into more expensive treatment such as veneers and implants I would say that if it is a job you can do, it will be vert lucrative long term. The only downside is that they all have hearing loss and use hearing aids. They put the reason down to the damage caused by the sound of the drills over a long period. So use earplugs when drilling.

Presumably because now they offer alot of plastic surgery? Lip fillers, Botox etc, that’s where all the money will be

You need 3As at A level and it takes 5 years to qualify, so becoming a dentist is not easy!
In terms of money, in private practice I earn around £2k a month doing a day a week so £8-10k a month would be doable full time. £100k a year is a great salary but not megabucks. You would be very tired though! You also have to pay higher rate tax, indemnity, GDC, course fees etc out of that. It takes a while in practice to gain the necessary skills and experience to work privately.
Everything that has been said about practice is true. I am in the very fortunate position of doing it 2 days a week so the back, neck etc pain is manageable. Sertraline has helped with the crippling anxiety and imposter syndrome.
Would I still do it if I had my time over? Not sure. I do enjoy it and I’m good at it. I enjoy the satisfaction of a job done well and relieving pain. I have lovely patients and students (I teach 5th years as a clinical demonstrator) and it is never boring.