To feel so fed up that the only way to get a good education seems to be privately?

Mmm, sure. Private kids look the same, sound the same, have the same politics as their minted ( mostly parents), it’s just so dull.

Why so chippy @Barbadossunset ? Where did I say ANY of that nonsense? You seem to be projecting your own issues on to me for some reason.

Just relating my experience. Never made any extrapolation from that. Just worth considering that pretty extreme and criminal behaviour can happen at even top private schools. Sorry to burst your bubble, being kept away from the nasty proles isn't going to protect your DC from that. Especially the drugs.

And there are also some shit state schools + good indy schools. Indy kids don't live in an indy bubble you know, they have lives and experiences outside of school and many parents mix and match state + indy so their DC will have experiences in both sectors.

That’s rubbish OP. There are lots of brilliant, very good and good state schools - otherwise we wouldn’t use them!
And lots of shit private schools… Sticking your child in an elite’s private system is probably the guaranteed way to make sure they are NOT well-rounded.

Yes bullying is there everywhere unfortunately. DS's case in the grammar school he went to it was only ever verbal. Physical fights were dealt with very seriously with varying levels of suspensions. DS did retaliate physically once and managed to shut the bully up. School dealt with the issue with others being horrible to him, but he himself was suspended

By the time 6th form came around DS was so much happier and joyful and all the silliness from the earlier years went away. He defo found that the STEM teaching in 6th form was great (especially the maths and FM)

Neither of those statements are true. They are tropes trotted out every time. A clever child might do well anywhere and they might get bullied to fuck or lost in the crowd or have a learning need (which has nothing to do with IQ) overlooked in any school.
The quality of teaching varies across ALL schools. In a v common trope that private teachers could never cope in state when the truth is that many if us have taught across both sectors. You might just as well say that some state teachers are poor because they don't have Masters and can't prep Oxbridge candidates. I absolutely think that all schools need a cross section of staff ..some will be excellent disciplinarians but maybe less accomplished at A level, some will be the opposite, some will be both.

This thread is going the way they always do with private school teachers, kids and parents being bashed based on anecdata and narrow or no direct experience. It's depressing. Im sure the op has now got the idea that there's a massive spectrum out there but so much depends on the individual child and it's simply not true that all kids can have a successful experience in state. I never intended to send mine private but the state school they went to triggered EBSA. Contrary to @Oblomov25's opinion, moving was not an option due to myriad factors involving parental support, mortgage lending criteria, ND kids who absolutely couldn't cope with any more change and a requirement to stay near their dad.

My DS was the brightest kid in his primary and would have definitely not reached his full potential had be been at his local secondary.

Like some of the kids DS went to primary with just weren't that smart. Quite a lot of them (and the parents) were jealous of DS.

DS at grammar was in the top set and was good but wasn't the best of the best.

To quote you OP and what you, rightly feel your children deserve - "A proper and ‘real’ understanding of life." And - "Small classes, loads of sport opportunities and nice clean and tidy environments".

YABU in suggesting only expensive private schools can offer this. Why? Because quite simply, this is exactly why we home educated our children and gave them everything you describe and far more.

Having been home educated right up until 16, they are now both at Sixth form doing A levels. The eldest is head student and only one of two that have had an Oxbridge interview. They are both very social, well rounded, show respect to others and handle themselves well in different situations. This is how they have been described by their teachers.

I strongly believe home education done well surpasses the experience of mainstream secondary education for many students in this country.

Berkshire. TBH I was a bit shocked too but it’s upper set so that could make a difference but it was maths so not an unusual subject. My younger was on a school tour so we went around to all the classes and I asked about it and started to count the classes. 25 per class at most - but kids do have illness etc.

There is a 3% difference in a level results between our school and the grammars over the border and almost no difference in the local private schools.

I get we are lucky and I know that isn’t the experience of a lot of people but my point wa s’more to say to the OP that private doesn’t automatically mean better.

Yes precisely.
Another thread is running asking if bright kids can do well anywhere. The unanimous reply has been: they might do OK but they probably won't reach their full potential.
If you are in a class of 32 where the teacher spends the majority of the lesson dealing with disruptive behaviour then how on earth will any kid be able to achieve their full potential? If you are at a school where it isn't 'cool' to do well and achieve, where expectations are low by the majority of parents then that's very hard to fight against as a young teen.

I'm not saying they won't do well. Of course a bright child will succeed anywhere.

But wouldn't they do a bit better in a more academic environment. Perhaps a few of the As become A*s.

I went to a grammar and can confirm... was a terrible experience. Left in year 9 to go to comp as I hated it so much. Bullying, drugs and extreme mental health issues across the pupil population. Grammar does not mean anything except the kids work at a higher and faster pace, which increases the pressure on them and unsuprisingly a lot of the kids blow a fuse.

Given that we have students joining our grammar from comprehensive and private I would say that good students with supportive parents, in general, do well wherever.

We feel guilty and like we're abandoning our principles

Of course you are not abandoning your principles and you mustn’t feel guilty for choosing what works best for your child. You are her advocate. No-one else is going to look out for her.
Children are not a medium through which to enact your principles.

My DS went to a "requires improvement" OFSTED rated secondary school and he's currently doing 4 A levels to do a medical degree at university. No help from me either as I left school with nothing and was a teenage parent. It's all down to his own ambition. If they put the work in it can be done but they have to want it.

Regarding grammars and behaviour, it's been so eye opening for me to work in a comprehensive. They're good at managing all sorts of behaviour because they do it a lot.

My experience in grammar was the teachers didn't have those skills and they didn't have sufficient management or pastoral support because "those things don't happen here."

Grammars are also very short on cash. Ours had no counsellor for example.

There were a lot of mental health issues.

Who says they don't need qualifications? At DDs indy school the minimum level of qualification is a BA/BSc. Many have Masters and there are 15 with PhDs. All have QTS status.
You are aware that to teach in state academies teachers don't need to be qualified?

There is massive teacher retention + re recruitment crisis. If you have kids in state secondary, ask them who last taught their maths or STEM subjects. Schools are happy to just have a body in the room, let alone a subject specialist. They save the specialists for GCSE years.

@nneverbeenskiing you're just doing your best in an imperfect world.

The year 6 to year 7 transition is so tricky.

My similar DD does have an EHCP and her needs are met in a mainstream school. Her avowed ambition on leaving primary was "become a footballer or SENCO teacher."

A good school environment (of any kind) is worth its weight in gold.

But no-one said they didn't! Drugs + general teenage behaviour happens in every school

You are being unreasonable to focus on building aesthetics and class size (it’s always been 30)

Ermmm.....no. it's not always 30. Most secondary schools have upwards of 32 in some classes and we have situations where children are being taught in groups of 60 or more because of staff shortages.

@Greensha When I went to primary school in the 1960s there were 46 pupils in my class and over a third passed their 11+. At secondary school we ran at just over 30 and did not have small group teaching until VIth form.

For the last 30+ years I have been an inner city school governor, as well as being (when they existed) a Lay Ofsted Inspector... the biggest difference in classes was never the size of the class but the passion of the teacher to convey the knowledge and excite children to learn. My current schools are both Victorian builds, one still has a roof top playground but the building are kept well because the staff care and look after the property, yes some rooms are not ideal but we make the best of them and our children make the most progress in the LA... starting well below the baseline in EYFS and then exceeding National and Local level when they move on to secondary school.

If I am honest, I would suggest you alter your expectations... because I am not sure that you will ever find what you are looking for.

Re teachers not having a degree in their subject... DD's degree is pharma... chemistry... Dd is doing a PGCE for Biology - her uni didnt do Chemistry this year - lack of experienced chemistry teachers with time to be placement mentors (they are spread very thinly). She's already been asked twice (by first placement and training schools) if she'd consider teaching A level Physics. Times are desperate.

Generally the group would tend to have different aspirations and that is a factor too in future success.

It’s rather alarming that people can teach in private schools without qualifications- Have heard this before

@oakleaffy if you’ve heard that before, then I’m surprised you haven’t heard that due to the teacher shortage, teachers in state schools have to teach subjects which they are not qualified to teach.

But in most they are. This is the issue with any school. There are good ones and not so good in both sectors. But if paying for private you can choose the good.