To think the call back into the office is an example of the patriarchy very much alive and well?

Just wondering how everyone went into the office 5 days a week pre-covid and didn't think it strange to have to do so?

Now we think it strange to have to go into the office 5 days a week.

What are the advantages of not doing so - apart from the obvious one of commuting time?

Yes it’s more a class issue I believe @MerryMaker when you look at the main motivations behind it - this is hypercapitalism in action.

Also seen as how many people are allegedly in favour of office working -if this thread is anything go by - there’s clearly plenty who would happily go into the office 3-5 times a week. So why not allow those to do that and then allow the others who struggle in offices to stay at home most days? If there’s performance concerns or that doesn’t meet the needs of the business due to the specific role then obviously that’s another matter. I used to work in a corporate events role where WFH wasn’t suitable some days for example.

But why the heavy handed approach to telling everyone, irrespective of their needs and circumstances, to get back to the office when many are WFH just fine.

I agree with another poster that this is much about class. The senior people imposing this already have flexibility. If they want to leave early to fit something in and work in the evening, they can. If they want to work in a quiet office to get away from the noise of an open plan office they can. The rest of us can not,

And I cant believe those claiming large open plan offices are quiet. They bloody are not. I appreciate more call centre workers wfh as I can now here what they are saying properly. In the past often you would hear them talking over a din in the background.

I personally hate working in large open plan offices. They are noisy, and if it is hot desking you can't sit next to anyone you actually work with anyway. But I am supposed to enjoy collaborating by being sat next to Darren who does not understand the job I do, but think he does. And he works in marketing, but just happens to be part of my section, even though we never work together, except when I ask him to tweet a post about a new project. Its such a nonsense.

Except women DID change something; women campaigned for the right to vote; fought for equal opportunities in the workplace; campaigned for good maternity benefits, fought to be considered for the top jobs, fought to not just be seen as just housewives and childbearers.
The result: Womens' contribution to the workforce was then taken very seriously because of changes WE asked for.

However, those changes meant women were then expected to be breadwinners, expected to pay half towards a mortgage and any household bills AND still maintain a home and care for children.

This is what we wanted. Apparently.

Fast forward to now and we want to WFH so we can put our washing on!

@Yestttlo Wfh removes the stress involved in pick up with extra travel etc etc as I assume you know

I don’t want to farm out my child all hours possible because my employer can’t be flexible. Again, being a parent and having childcare responsibilities should be honoured. It’s not because it’s seen as the women’s job.

InkHeart202
But why do you have the greater responsibility for household chores? Can your husband/partner not be responsible for putting a wash on or making dinner?

^ in my circumstances he is not able to work from home.^

What you're saying seems to imply you consider it to be YOUR responsibility alone.
Your DP can't work from home, so it's all down to you to make it work by WFH?

Are you not feeding into the patriarchy by prioritising the value of his job over yours ?

Whoever is doing it - and it’s mostly women for the reasons I’ve said - gets no credit for it. Should your employer give yout credit for having a child? No not directly.

Why do you want credit from your employer for having a child?

Your employer employs people to make his business a financial success. Is this not what you would do if you set up a business?

I really do get your point, but I think it's not just the 'patriarchial society' i.e. employers that's the problem.

Shouldn't your husband/partner also take into account the effect on your employment conditions and prospects when you have a child?

Where are all the ordinary men standing up saying that women have drawn the short straw.
That their wives are having to make sacrifices because of pregnancy and raising a family - because they are both starting a family

I agree that having children usually impacts far more on women than on men. Women are so often the default carer.

But why aren't our husbands and partners speaking out?

Why aren't they asking for more flexible hours so they can do nursery/school drop-off and pick-up . Asking for time off so they can do doctor's appointments / dentist's appointments / looking after aged parents .......... etc

It's not all down to employers to make changes if their male workforce isn't complaining and pushing for change?

Yes OP, I agree it's still a patriarchal society! - but it's going to take a big push from everyone to change the status quo.

*edited to add @OP

Because we must just accept the status quo set up for senior able bodied men, and not try and change anything?

This! 👏👏

Senior management want our largely female workforce to come back to the office to highlight the vital contribution these women make to the business.

But surely that's just the unfortunate consequence of having children AND a full time job? You will 'cope' because that's all you can do.

I decided very early on that I didn't want to just 'cope' in life - which is why I decided not to have children. I made that decision. No one else.

Poor bloke. Does his boss know?

DH works from home and now does far more housework than me .

Oh please... Many of the companies wanting staff back in the office will be run by women. The facts are that this was always going to happen eventually.

Respectfully, OP, YABU to think any employer will give a shit about whether you can put a wash on while you're WFH!!
Working full time, you just have to find some way of fitting all that in to be honest

Totally agree with all this!

When I was 16 and worked for a bank in my first job, the manager would be sat in his office reading the paper all morning smoking a cigar. He would often disappear at 3pm to "meet" clients via the golf course.

Men (at least those working in offices and finance have always had flexible working).

In my line of work, the ones who were pushing for more office time for all were all men!

My question would also be what did you do before covid when working from home was pretty rare?

100 Thank Yous!!! 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏.

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing I totally agree. How dare the plebs have any flexibility

I think it’s more a class thing than men v women.

Or maybe more wealthy v poorer people rather than class as such.

Business owners etc are able to make their own rules, have flexibility etc Often more senior employees too. It’s a way of stopping people further down the “food chain” having the same flexibility, work/ life balance and sense of ownership over what they’re doing.

I work 9-5 and dh works 7-3 so I do drop off and dh does pick up
ds now 14 so he can look after himself But even when smaller and even if both 9-5 it is easier to collect a child from close to home than rushing back from a commute

Even though dh already wfh when ds was small we did use wrap round care as we would not have ds at home and try to work at the same time- less relevant to us now though.

This this this.

A huge employer in my town shut down about 5 years ago - all outsourced to India. It work, and not just calls either but more sophiticated things.

Any job that would function 100% as wfh could be outsourced.

If there comes to be a requirement that employers allow WFH for anyone who could, they have zero incentive not to outsource.

I ageee with you OP. Back to the office when it’s not business need, just a preference, suits men who don’t want to help at home much more than it suits women or men who do need or want to.

The problem is your husband, not your employer. Get him to pull his weight more and life will be a lot easier.

I feel that you're one of the main people who is upholding the patriarchy tbh, particularly as you're the one who wants to wfh in order to do chores and childcare.

I doubt that there are many men who have ever said it would be useful to wfh in order to be able to put on a load of washing, for example.

'the call back to the office will damage my career progression due to time spent travelling which means I can’t be online longer'

So you're only progressing in your career by working extra hours (around office hours when you'd be commuting)?

And you're not breastfeeding .... and your husband needs to start pulling his weight.

I'm all for wfh but your arguments sound petty and agressive.

The other problem is that even if everyone is working conscientiously, many workplaces need at least some people in the office regularly. So how do you decide who gets the privilege of WFH and who doesn't?

In the OPs world it seems to be the employee who makes the most stink.

We have monthly meetings on Teams and also 1-1s every 2 weeks. There's also a company wide monthly meeting online.
I know much more about what's happening now than I did before COVID.

I worked in one open plan office that was brilliant. It was basically very under occupied and I could sit at a desk and not have any one next to me on the next desk. We all respected each others space so would distribute ourselves accordingly so as not to bunch up together. It was also large enough that you could find more quiet areas of the office. Because it was essentially a small team in a large office it was rarely that loud anyway.

There were also multiple small meeting rooms you could either book or just pop into. There was usually at least a couple available. The heat /AC was easy to adjust in these rooms .

There was also an amazing free coffee machine 😆 it was honestly a rare find. I have never worked in an office that compares to that before or since!!

I find most open plan offices are just noisy and full of distractions. Often the toilets can be disgusting too which makes me uncomfortable 🤢 and the office space is too hot or too cold for some of us. Not to mention having to hot desk which is a nightmare as I need to be in corners away from busy aisles.

Why can’t people accept that some of us work better at home? I’m ND but I’m sure many NT work better at home too.