To think the call back into the office is an example of the patriarchy very much alive and well?

Absolutely no-one monitors my time or productivity when I'm working at home. I'm sure that's true for lots of people. I manage a big team and do find occasionally that one (or perhaps two) are not as responsive as they should be and I'm looking at that this year. All the rest are meeting objectives, as I am.

We are currently all in the office at least (mandated) half our working hours as a minimum. I think that should go up a bit to 60/40, for the sake of younger employees who aren't getting the best from themselves or us. And people do need people, lots seem to have forgotten that. They need to see managers and colleagues, and socialise.

I'm also worried about the huge cohort of women working unseen in customer service type roles, and what might happen to those jobs in the future.

At our firm, if we're down on hours for 2 months running we get put on a performance plan for improvement. We simply wouldn't get away with slacking, wherever we're working.

This thread has made me nostalgic for all the offices/ organisations I've worked in and many of the people I've worked with. Starting with Tony, the lovely editor 30 years old than me who taught me much of what he knew in the three years I worked for him, arriving as the rookiest rookie in my first job. I had no idea how valuable it was, but it enabled me to walk into my next job a few years later and look like I knew what I was doing. I had fantastic nights out with Ashley and Jan and Felicia and Tim and Frank and innumerable others. I ended up sharing a flat with a colleague called Simon, went on art history holidays with Linda from Sales and Marketing, learned so much from so many people. I visited Frank and boyfriend who now live in France a couple of years ago and I'm still in contact with a number of old colleagues, including Tony who is now 87. I wouldn't be who I am without my contact over the years with all of them. I'd probably be a miserable don't-open-the-door-to-anyone-you-don't-know/ never let anyone stay in your home type if I'd worked from home. There is so much to be learned and so many opportunities to be taken when you're in the office.

It's not not wanting to, is it? It's not being able to. Lockdown proved in many industries you could WFH. If you can't see the relevance of lockdown - a situation which effectively test drove a model - then I can't help you. Your comment is ableist and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

That explains alot Thank you 👍

But if the job is office based, at least part of the time, and if the potential employee cannot physically be present in the office, then that is not discrimination.

If you literally can’t do your job, then you will have to leave it and find another one. The lockdowns were an artificial situation. It makes absolutely no sense to think that because something was the case temporarily because of a set of reasons that are now irrelevant, a workplace would not revert to the old order. I don’t see the relevance of disabilities to this. A disabled person has certain rights and protections. Not wanting to return to office-based work isn’t a disability.

If I ring HMRC and can hear a washing machine going, an Amazon delivery arriving or kids TV playing, I imagine a manager can to.

I support the flexibility of hybrid working for everyone that can. I also support the business in making a, not unreasonable, request that employees are physically present as required.

Without sounding patronising - and I genuinely mean this - that's not how it works. Discrimination exists from the off. People want people in the office from day one. You can't physically attend an interview? Managers want you to be on-site? The flexible working request might be accepted IF you develop the disability while already working but forget about progression. Discrimination exists. It really does.

I can’t possibly know what you mean by ‘introvert’. What is generally meant by ‘introvert’ on Mn is almost never in any way accurate, and covers a variety of largely unrelated traits like ‘poor social skills’, ‘social anxiety’, ‘misanthropy’ and ‘I prefer not to ever get out of my pyjamas or leave my own four walls’. Which are all fine. You do you, obviously. But there’s no reason why a workplace should need to accommodate your preference for avoiding other people.

What about if - introvert or extrovert - it was irrelevant? That you literally couldn't manage it? That this "we're in it together" propaganda peddled during covid was just that - propaganda. And, actually, for many people lockdown and health uncertainty didn't come to a close in 2021. I had hoped that the pandemic had taught people something, but ultimately it hasn't. People have very short memories. WFH often isn't a choice - not just because of motherhood - but because it physically isn't a choice. Disabled people don't want to be on benefits - they're terrible - and they often have so much to offer. That's what should be being discussed.

If you have a disability and can show that you can do the job just as well from home, you have the right to put in a flexible working request which will likely be accepted.

That doesn't mean that everyone gets to WFH so they can 'pop on a wash' and do the school run on their employer's time.

Imo i feel that working hybrid is the way forward. I do 3 days in/2 at home. I do personally feel having a link to the office and seeing colleagues in person is productive. Yes i spend most of my time talking when in the office, catching up etc but it builds relationships. I enjoy days wfh but find it can be lonely.

however, your personal circumstances should not be taken into consideration. Whether you have kids or not, your employed to do a job.

As an introvert I think the wfh is better for extroverts.

As an introvert, I could quite happily be curled up at home 24/7 and very rarely miss seeing people. And I would have no impetus to go out and meet other people. The longer I didn't, the harder it would be to step out.

An extrovert will almost certainly make their own way to meeting other people face to face so won't have that issue.

Actually, the bigger issue is one of disability discrimination. Lockdown proved that people who were disabled were just as capable, but now that's been forgotten. I think it's appalling.

It's not patriarchy. I know of several examples at a multinational bank where divorced men with part time child care responsibilities are an almost protected category - it's accepted that they are just unproductive headcount who cannot be made redundant. And I have that directly from the HR Director. Same happening for men as for women - several of them also considered quasi "protected but useless" because they wfh whilst doing childcare. It only came up in conversation because they were men.
It's a fact though that if you take your career seriously and want to progress, you can't be at home all the time. You have to be going above and beyond.

Yes, that's why I said it's not specifically a WFH issue.

However, if you insist that your job only requires a computer and internet connection, and that any real life interaction with your colleagues is an imposition on your precious time, then I would say your job is one of those first in line for replacement by AI.

No, most people cope.
It is called organisation.

I agree that it makes childcare easier. Obviously, it is much more difficult for single parents.

As repeatedly said on MN if you are doing it all you have a DP problem.

MN includes a variety of views and when I say introvert I mean introvert.

Not sure where the heck you got lazy from? Never heard anyone associate introversion with laziness. Very telling that you would say that.

Again, my point still stands that most workplaces are definitely tailored towards extroverts.

“Re-organising themselves” - every workplace has laptops nowadays and is set up for remote working. So they don’t need to do much other than let people continue as they have been doing for years.

Can we move past this lazy nonsense about ‘extroverts’? What Mn means by ‘introvert’ is almost always ‘socially maladroit or lazy’ or ‘misanthropic’. I see no reason why workplaces should reorganise themselves for the benefit of those who, barring diagnosed additional needs, are unable to function professionally around other people.

Oh crap....the office is in Hong Kong. That's one hell of a commute.
Oh wait........WFH was a thing well before covid.
Broaden your mind.

Yes to the dominance of extroverts!

@neverbeenskiing - that's a management issue

These things need to be looked on a sector by sector basis. The sweeping generalisations about lazy WFH employees and in person productivity aren't particularly helpful.

I'm a university academic and I've always worked in a hybrid fashion. It's acknowledged that research /writing is best done at home rather than a shared office. Same goes for online teaching.

However, it is still important to be physically in the office sometimes as some work is best suited to that environment and it helps with relationship building.

There is evidence that fully WFH is detrimental to young employees and women as it removes opportunities for learning by observation and relationship building which can be really important for career progression.

Flexible working and hybrid approaches are probably the most ideal approach in most cases. At least that's what the research suggests 🤷🏼‍♀️

I chose a 100% remote role in a company with HQ in North America, because I am solely responsible for a disabled child and have very little by way of external support. I'm working on that, and hopefully by this time next year I'll be in a position to travel a bit to on site meetings, but we'll see.

The rise in remote working has super-charged my career. I would like an office presence in the future, when my child is older and more independent, but for the next decade I need flexibility. And I'll take my expertise to organisations who offer that to me.