To think we have gone wrong with kids as a nation?

These are kids that have been completely institutionalized, and parents who have been taught to feel they aren't up to the job.

^

So what's the solution??? Cos whatever we're doing now, ain't working

I live abroad and I can tell you now, no child aged five wasn't toilet trained when starting school. I'd even say aged 4, at the subsided daycare.

Works in Norway etc too.

At some point, we need to be accountable

Oh come on. Telling a child who has misbehaved that he will not be allowed to use his gaming system for a week, or will have to help his mum tidy the garage rather than go to see a film, or even that you will tell his mum and she is going to be totally pissed that you pounded some kid in gym class, is not "fear-based."

Not liking something or being upset is not being afraid.

I think this could end up being counter-productive.

I expect there will always be some kids from families where no one will really parent, and they'd be better off in a nursery from a young age.

But overall, I think parents have been really disempowered to bring up their own children. Large numbers of them are in a long day of institutionalized care from a young age, and parents have been put in the position that they don't spend enough time with them to really know how they tick, they don't see the vast majority of their relationships and interactions first hand. They certainly don't see them enough of the day to potty train them.

So of course they feel like they can't do these things.

And once they are in school, parents have been taught that their child's behaviour and education is the responsibility primarily of the state. If there are problems, it's the state's job to make it work somehow.

These are kids that have been completely institutionalized, and parents who have been taught to feel they aren't up to the job.

Too many parents are glued to their phones instead of interacting with their child and parenting and teaching them. I feel sad when I see a young baby in a pram being pushed along by a parent (usually a mother) with earphones jammed in. These are times they should be interacting with their child chatting and pointing out dogs, leaves etc. Instead the poor child stares mutely at a semi present parent who prefers listening to music instead of interacting with the child that they chose to have.

What gets me about this is that effectively, the people allowing these kids to carry on with their disruptive behaviur are "communicating" to the kids who are trying to learn that they don't matter, that learning doesn't matter, and that their feelings and even physical security aren't important.

And then you get this - oh, you can't exclude little David, he has an absolute right to go to school and he's had a hard time.

Sure, and the state should do what it can to help him (which may be less effective than we would wish), but that does not make it ok to compromise Jill's education, or to let Michael be picked on every day. They have as much right to a good education and a peaceful environment as David, and David is making it clear he has no interest in respecting the others in the class.

Young women too.

Can you teach respect without recourse to the potential for punishment ?

I suspect not - if there is no punishment for behaviour others don't like , there is surely no reason for me to stop it

Yes, it does. Punishment which was mentioned in the OP is not so helpful, however, and that’s what I’ve addressed in my responses.

Childen who are bullying others , hurting others do not lead to a "safe environment and nurturing relationships " for the victims

If you separate the two you are punishing the bully ( although often the victim is punished more by being moved away from their friends )

If you don't separate them , you harm the victim

If you treat the bully as the one who needs extra care and affection you give a very strange message to the victim and children are not stupid and learn well - not the messages you speak to them but the messages you show them

You can't avoid hurting one of those childen - and hurting victim rather than the bully is wrong

Children from bad parents and rotting families can become wonderful people but if they are taught that they can do what they like and get treated like princesses as a result then they won't

Totally agree: we live in such a namby pamby politically correct world now.

if I misbehaved at school and the teacher told my parents, they always believed them and I got in more trouble when I got home. I was often grounded for a week or whatever and that was in the days when going out with your mates was normal. Punishments were always followed through.

kids are just totally pampered now.

Is that where the bully gets to sit down with their victim and hear just how effective their actions have been?

Yes some of the rules are pathetic...I absolutely dread having to deal with it when my eldest daughter goes in afew years.

They do something used in schools called 'Restorative practice' which does cover this.

Jeez...I hope you don't teach my child!

No kid is 'not very nice' by default (and yes i do work with challenging children too) but of course their behaviour can certainly become so, if not because of SEN then through facing adverse experiences and/or negative influences, which sadly are often parental relationship based.

The comparison you make between adults and kids doesn't make sense at all...surely you realise adults have responsibility for and control for their actions in a way that children cannot.

I think the balance is skewed when young dc are just taught about their own emotional regulation, self-confidence and happiness and the emphasis is solely on how they feel, in isolation, without any context, or little reference to others.

Lack of discipline at home and at school leads to more shoutiness often and this makes everyone more stressed. It's a bad situation.

Years ago my French GP year said, you are the boss when it comes to your children, manage them well and you call the shots. I've never forgotten it. I also try to emphasise that being accountable for your own actions and the consequences that follow.

Doesn’t nurturing a child include teaching respect for others, self discipline and responsibility for one’s behaviour, and appropriate boundaries? This engenders a safe learning environment for all?

Meanwhile, all these little sociopaths are going to be in the workforce in however many years and driving cars etc. No impulse control? Never mind, just plough through people on the zebra crossing. Fuckers shouldn't be in my way. Employed as a home carer? Grandma getting on your nerves? Give her a swift kick, serves her right. Doesn't she know I'm doing her a massive favour coming out to her rotten home as part of my stupid boring job? Want to be up all night partying, playing deafingly loud music? Crack on, why shouldn't I? It's my burfday innit? Doesn't matter about the neighbours. Can't be bothered to feed the pet dog? Spent the money on gel nails? Sod it, let it starve, serves it right for being a dog in the first place.

Conscience formation. The conscience fairy doesn't sprinkle it on junior as soon as he/she pops out.

Parents have a responsibility to raise non feral citizens who are fit to be let out each day.

No wonder ND people struggle in the workforce having to share the space with the entities schools/parents are spitting out now.

Yanbu. It's way too soft. Structure, routine and discipline are good when growing up. I agree it's back to front, adults now scared and pandering to kids whims.

It's not really a case of not daring to, it's just pointless. From the point of view of an individual teacher in an individual school, you are never going to affect the school behaviour policy. Primary school behaviour is shocking, with the worst and most persistent offenders simply told "that's not ok", then rewarded with fun activities outside the classroom. While the kids who's work they smashed up watch through the window from their English grammar lesson. I quit.

@borisjohnsonsforgottencondom my point is if you have a child with ASD it's not so black and white. They don't respond the same way a NT kid does to being out of their comfort zone or uncomfortable. Just because it works for you and your ASD kid it doesn't mean it works for all and I think it's unfair to throw that out there on a public forum when there is already so much misinformation about ASD. If you've met one child with ASD, then you've met one child with ASD. You know your child best, and I know mine best. When my son started a new school in September, I knew social interaction would be his biggest challenge and what he would find the most daunting. I didn't feel like I needed to then force him into shorts and t shirts to make him feel extra uncomfortable to prove a point. I have another friend who's daughter has autism. She's in mainstream school. She has selective mutism and it has taken her a year and a half to say 1 word in school. Because of her selective mutism it has meant she has not been able to communicate when she needs to go to the toilet. She also has a fear of using toilets outside of home. Her mum has to go in at regular intervals in the day to take her to the toilet. What would you suggest here? Let her pee her pants to teach her a lesson, make her feel uncomfortable?
The fact that the school and her mum have been so accommodating to make her environment "comfortable" and a safe space is amazing and it shows, because here we are one and half years later and she's been able to say her first words in school.

Agreed. Unfortunately the world won’t flex for my disabled children forever, and also there will be a time that I won’t be here for him, either. There has to be a middle ground, for sure

I don't see feeling uncomfortable and out of your comfort zone as a negative, maybe that's the difference here.

And abusive bullies are given head pats and sympathy because they had a difficult upbringing.

@borisjohnsonsforgottencondom I really don't see the problem with schools being accommodating of kids who are ND or have ASD if it's not harmful or disruptive to the other children in the class.
Its great that you were able to find a way to convince your son with ASD to wear shoes that comply with the uniform policy. My son with ASD will absolutely not wear short sleeve tops or shorts and is particularly fussy about textures. We are fortunate that kids don't have to wear school uniform here so its easy to accomodate this. On the times that he has had to put on a t shirt - (for example he got his top wet in school and I mistakenly left a t shirt as a spare) he has been inconsolable, immediately taken it off or had it half hanging off for the rest of the day. What might seem like the smallest thing to an NT person or parent is actually one of the biggest triggers for a child like mine with ASD, to the extent that we then experience school refusal.
I'm glad that his school is accommodating of those quirks- they are not harmful and do not affect the other children and allow my son to attend and enjoy school. The teachers tell me he is one of the easiest kids they have and I know he loves it there. It's not about giving in and letting him have what he wants, it's about recognising that he has ASD and some things are really difficult for him. That might well change in the future. And we keep trying again each year. But the world already feels pretty "uncomfortable" for him. I certainly dont want to deliberately make him feel more uncomfortable unnecessarily or put him even further out of his comfort zone. I anticipate each year we will see some improvement as we have been so far.