What should school for ND kids look like? AIBU to suggest that a one size fits all is wrong?

There are two aspects to school. The curricululm and the environment.

There are some children that will always need a different curriculum and some that will always need a different environment and some that need both. So special schools should exist.

in terms of mainstream.

I think the curriculumn is a bit fast in the earlier years, and a bit content heavy in the later years so to me it really works for the "top" 50% but is a bit of a mess for the 'bottom' 50%. I think high stakes national tests that are published are too early. I dont have an issue with external moderation but thinks like phonics pass rates or sats shouldn't be publicly out there.

I think the environment varies school to school. But most childfdn actually prefer places to be calm, with consistent (fair) rules.

Okay but would you be ok with those having a different curriculum or would you expect all these kids in special schools to be working towards GCSE's?

The way special schools used to work was that there was little emphasis in qualifications and much more on functional skills acquisition and preparation for life.

But lots of people didn't like that, as they felt their child is capable of more, and was being consigned to the scrapheap before being given a chance.

But the problem is, yes some of these children are capable of some qualifications but the sheer level of support they need to acquire them is huge and ultimately costs a vast amount and often, because that level of support cannot feasibly be replicated in the workplace (working adults cant be provided with a 1:1 in huge numbers!!), these young people are no more able to hold down a job than before, so what was the point?

The issue at the moment is despite vast amounts of money being spent on SEN with ever increasing numbers of young people accessing support, outcomes are not improving.

So what do people really think the answer is without spending more money that isn't there? There isn't one

I also would have hated more outdoor time.

The thing is even with m splitting them into quiet and chatty, you’ll likely get parents of those in the “chatty” class saying the kids in the quiet class are doing better (because are more focused) and so those in the chatty group aren’t being given the same opportunities as those in the quiet. So discrimination etc will be mentioned.

Plus it’s guaranteed you’ll get at least one parent insisting their child needs quiet in order to learn. But. That child will be a loud disruptive child. But they should still be in the quiet class. Because even though THEY are disruptive, they can’t cope with OTHERS around them being being disruptive. So what do you do there??

And re gain. How do you know? His progress, IEP or EHCP will be private.

Actually some children who struggle with school do go on to be working members of society.

We need more in between schools, some SEN schools are very specialist and wouldn't suit some ND people.

Low demand does not exist. Have you looked at the curriculum amd Ofsted expectations.121s are as rare as hen’s teeth. Have you not seen the Sen funding crisis outlined in the media?🤔

You work at it. Loops filter noise, put students in different areas of the classroom….what you don’t do is throw your arms up in defeat. It’s not good enough.

The level.of need does seem to be getting much worse so I think there must be external factors affecting the number of children we now see who struggle to cope in a classroom. Not entirely sure what they are though.

Or maybe all the shit we are doing, all the 1 to 1s, and sensory diets and the low demand?

Is it working? I think it arguably all its doing is making some parents happier.

There's a child in my DC class. They have steadily relaxed rule after rule after rule for him, removed boundaries & consequences, done everything mum & psychologist have demanded, and his behaviour and attainment is worse than ever and he is "disregulated" at home just as much.

The cost of what they have offered him, both in financial terms and in terms of the unhelpful messages to other children that you never have to do things you find uncomfortable, have been enormous. Its a finite pot, that is less money and effort available for his peers. But its produced no real measurable gain.

I went to a small school, 16 kids per class in primary 7 then 20 kids for high school which was attached to the primary 7.

I don’t see how practical this would be to split the class further into chatty and quiet? I would have also hated more outdoor time unless it was organised sport which others would hate.

You really can’t tailor it everyone.

If noise cancelling headphones cut out absolutely all noise they would also cut out the teacher. They don’t cut out all noise. I know. I’ve tried many many sets. You can easily still hear people talking around you even at low-ish volume. It just muffles it. Even if a fidget toy is spent in some cases you can still see them flicking it and playing with it next to you.
I’m not saying children that need this shouldn’t have it. All I’ve ever asked is what about the children that can’t deal with these things?
As a PP said about their child, my ideal school would be a 1950s sit at your desk in silence school. But I am well aware that wouldn’t suit everyone. But how do you merge the needs of those who can’t tolerate people yelling, flicking, getting up, constantly talking with those that do need to do those things.

Smaller schools would be a start. Recognition and differentiation between those who need a busy chatty classroom and those who need quiet in your chair classroom. More outdoor time. Healthy and tasty school meals. Soft starts after holidays. And this all the way through to 18.

I think a lot of the issue here is that they were bullied which is awful. This would then affect their confidence and ability in other areas. It’s hard for teachers to stop this completely.

Even if they manage to prevent them from being actively bullied, if kids have decided they don’t like certain other kids they’ll just ignore them which is heartbreaking really.

I wasn’t really bullied as such, but every time I moved school (3 times before age 11) it would take me at least a term, sometimes a year to make friends. I can imagine I’d have been miserable if things had continued that way. I couldn’t really concentrate that well in school but because I ended up enjoying the social aspect I was ok. I’d just go home and learn what I needed then.

The irony is the teachers in High school assumed I was lazy since I was unfocused in class and didn’t understand how I achieved high grades. What they didn’t know is I was an undiagnosed ND who got no additional support in exams but was actually working very hard at home and in quiet reference libraries to compensate for the fact that school wasn’t a great learning environment for me although it was enjoyable since I had friends to see.

I don’t think schools can cater for everyone really tbh.

* I didn’t mean to quote the whole OP!*

@Dalmau

All children should have an uncluttered learning environment and it’s very easy to provide visuals without sticking things all over the walls that most can’t see anyway- key rings, timetables stuck on desks etc. Movement breaks and non noisy fidget breaks are very easy to provide- lots of schools manage.

If children move classroom every hour (as they do in almost all secondaries), it IS difficult. I can't reset a classroom including sticking a new timetable on a desk or five and putting out/putting away key rings in the four mins between one lesson ending and the next beginning. I can barely nip to the loo and get the next lesson ready!

How should I do non disruptive movement breaks in a school where children should not be outside the classroom unattended? They have to be in a classroom or accompanied by an adult if moving to a different room. No toilet breaks during lessons unless for medical reasons. And no TAs.

The adults I know with ADHD have emerged, albeit at 40yo, as the most wonderful productive people I know. They just need to find their thing first.

I don't think there is a solution for schools really other than one size fits all, it simply isn't economically feasible to have a bespoke 121 service for, anecdotally based on my current teaching experience, 30% of the class. Because remember that that 30% all have needs different to each other.

Someone up thread mentioned the 'progress' that the UK has made, educationally in the last 15 years. I would argue that a lot of this progress has caused many of the issues that we are now seeing. The curriculum is so narrow, the teaching style is so limited, and the academic expectations are so fast (not high - just get to a pointless level of memorisation as quickly as possible). Only a tiny proportion of learning styles are catered for by the system (no criticism of teachers doing their best within it). As an adult, I would struggle to sit at a desk learning entirely through PowerPoint slides all day. Children need to make, create, explore, experience. They need to play - which is where they will learn the social and self regulation skills that allow them to cope in a class of 30. We need to slow the expectations and broaden the curriculum, so that more children have an opportunity to succeed, and enjoy at least some of their time in school.

Have reported your disgustingly ableist comment. You do realise disabled people have existed all this time and contributed in many ways to society don’t you?

Why don't schools recognise that every child is different and that some need adjustments?

Believe me, we really do.

I spend lunchtimes with the SENDCo and many of our conversations centre around this.

The problem is that, re can recognise the individual needs but we can't change the professional expectations of us or the demands of the job.

The whole thing is contradictory.

One one hand, we are told (and recognise) that eg transitions are difficult and that cognitive overload is a thing. We are told to be mindful, put things in place and meet the individual needs of children. Yet, on the other, the timetable includes very many hard transitions during the day and the curriculum is full of cognitive overload and we can't change those for individual children. The day is packed amd we are constantly told to 'demand' more from them.

We know what the children need but we don't have the staff, the space or the resources to meet those needs.

Nor the flexibility in the timetable or curriculum.

As pp have said, as long as the child is ticking the necessary boxes school don't bother. I pulled my youngest son from school completely as we had absolutely zero support. His mental health was suffering badly. I asked his head of year for a reduced timetable or just do the essential GCSEs. I was told that he had to do all 8 subjects. The final straw was when he came home with a 50 page homework book for one subject at half term. To be completed over half term. He went back but he was just completely overwhelmed. A year of home schooling and we managed to get him onto a 14-19 study programme at the local adult education centre. He has completely changed. So much happier and relaxed about his GCSEs. Also learning a trade. Cannot thank the education centre enough for changing my son

It's a tough one. The main problem is money.

My only official diagnosis is OCD, but a young relative was diagnosed with what was then termed Asperger's plus ADHD in the '90s. Other family members have since been diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia.

A medic has suggested that I have ASDS and ADHD, but there's no point in a diagnosis at my age - nearly 65.

As a teacher, I found it increasingly difficult to deal with the needs of all - I'd get children with ADHD coming in with fidget toys, clickers, etc. Fine for them, but disruptive for others.

I much preferred a quiet classroom as a child.

I will say that American schools are very big on inclusion as it’s the law. The research does show it works. The problem is that it needs to be funded and staffed properly.

i liked that my DS here had a lot of flexibility and once we moved to secondary we could tailor his plan by subject. He has dysgraphia along with ASD and ADHD, and he was able to be in a support class for English but in an accelerated maths class. One of the schools he might have attended if we had stayed in the UK has an autism unit. (I have friends with DC at this school.) there, it’s all or nothing. Either you have to be mainstreamed, or if you need additional support you must do all your lessons in the unit and be limited to 5 GCSEs.

And that's why we will never have a system that fully meets the need of every child, whether ND or NT BUT I do think we can do better than what we've currently got.

I’m not in the UK (USA) but it does drive me batty when other parents of ND kids start generalising from their own experience. A typical class of 30 is going to be an issue, yes. But some ND kids are very self motivated, others need more structure. Some are very responsive to peer models and some are not. So I don’t think we are going to find a magic formula the way some parents think we will.

Of course 1 size doesn't fit all but it's not going to get much better with Labour’s 'inclusion' agenda ie a cost saving exercise.
No government will put the investment in, we have money for some things, education doesn't seem to be one of those things! So, so short sighted and children (both NT + ND) suffer. The current education system fails so many kids. The money for SEN pledged by Labour seems to be ringfenced for capital projects instead of more SEN support eg specialist support TAs etc.

I should reiterate that it was not gf specialist autism school that was a non starter, they are aimed at disruptive autism and mostly boys!

As a former teacher, it was impossible to give every pupil the classroom experience they needed and deserved, because so many needs conflicted and I had no support to deal with it.

As a parent, it's why I deregistered my 10yo daughter. She is working several years ahead academically but is definitely ND and was not coping with a classroom full of constant arguments and shouting that the teacher was struggling to control. She was crying every day in school out of frustration because she was either having to help lower attaining pupils with their work (which translated into them getting her to do their work for them) or sometimes being given appropriately challenging work, but then being left to it and unable to get any help in areas she was struggling because the teacher's attention was needed with the lower attaining pupils, so her confidence was knocked.

It wasn't the teacher's fault, but it wasn't the right environment for my daughter. Luckily we were in a position where I was at home anyway and she's now thriving in home ed, but not everyone has that option, so kids and teachers continue to struggle.