To think the British educational system is all wrong?

Finland started declining well before smart phones became an issue in schools. The radical curriculum overhaul definitely seems to be a big factor.

What is interesting is that people will point to Finland's education system as it is now while pointing to Finland's reputation formed from an entirely different system 20 years ago and suggest that we should be emulating Finland - we would be copying declining success. What people tend to do far less of is point at the consistent top performers on the PISA league tables and suggest that we should be copying their extremely long days and intensely hot-housing methods.

Perhaps a different take here. My friends little girl is nearly 9, he has a physical health condition that has restricted her greatly from attending school. Her condition does not affect her mentally, she is sharp as a razor. She was meant to start school in 2019, but being an august baby, she would have been young in the year, and so mum requested to defer to 2020 to give her time to get physically stronger. Then covid happened. She didn’t start school till 2021, already 2 years after she should have done. Since then she has attended school less than 20% of the time, and has difficulty following instructions, sitting still and concentrating, and generally displaying the behaviours children learn when at school. The older she’s got, the more set her lack of discipline is, and it’s now become a sort of game to push back against the teachers, because she’s now aware she can’t do what a lot of children 3 years younger can do with ease. The parents are excellent and have great boundaries/discipline etc, but it gets harder the older she gets. Children going to school early gives them such a great sense of concentration and training for when they are older. Are any of us really traumatised from going to school age 5? I rather think not.

I absolutely 100% agree with the OP. Childhood is a precious time that comes around only once.

Education is important but so is childhood. Children go into structured learning far too young. I distresses me when chidlren get labelled as ADHD etc. when the crux of the problem is often that they are being asked to behave in a way that does not chime with their being at that stage.

OP should seek out a Steiner School. There are some now that ar4e state funded.

I have been interested to observe the experiences of a friend bringing up her (teen) DC in Switzerland.

Now that is a very serious, academic system but with a high degree of focus on vocational outcomes and readiness for the workplace too.

However, the approach to SEND and issues like bullying seems much more hands off. Children walk to school by themselves from a young age. There is little choice of school.

We expect our schools to do a lot of additional stuff in the UK.

Schools don't operate in some kind of vacuum from the wider society they're in.

If you consider the histories of countries like Switzerland and Finland you can see why their school systems might have gone a certain direction.

The UK too.

I could not agree more. YANBU OP

Do you think a 21 year old who turned up to an interview (Teams or otherwise) in a T-shirt would be taken seriously?

Did you do your Teams interviews in a tracksuit with messy hair?

I think it depends on the school. My kids primary was all learning through play until year 2 really. It was lovely. I think most schools are just exam factories from year 6 though.
There are so many ways to learn and reasons to learn. I agree with a pp who said they would have been bored if they couldn’t read until 7(me too!) and someone else said Shakespeare and poetry was no use to bottom sets which I couldn’t disagree with more. I think there is so much to learn from Shakespeare and poetry, for everyone, it’s just that the way these things are taught is so rigid and dry.

It's generally considered to be declining because they've moved away somewhat from what worked and started trying fashionable ideas, and the introduction of smart phones which has caused a decline pretty much everywhere but especially in Finland because so many schools had no phone policies and let kids just be on their phones in class instead of learning.
The basic principles still stand though, the parts they didn't change like frequent breaks, small class sizes, and not too big a curriculum.

Some of the teachers tend to remind them to study more than others, and her maths teacher offers after school study sessions before exams but it's up to the children whether or not they study, but they know if they fail a subject they'll have to go to summer school and if they still don't pass they'll have to resit the year. Basically you can't get through school without learning what you need to learn (in certain cases like some sen cases they have different expectations for a pass though), which is not the case in Britain where you automatically go up to the next year.

So did I.
The government now have a very clear understanding of my views on teaching for mastery.
Amongst many other things - I’m coming for over the top grammar as well. You don’t need to know what it’s called just how to do it.
It infuriates me teaching things that I have had to “learn it to teach it”lately- if I’ve got to 40, got post graduate qualifications without knowing something why on earth does a 7 year old have to know it.

People really need to stop going on about Finland, their education system which used to be good has been in decline for nearly 20 years. Lots of concern about their falling PISA scores.

https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/rise-and-fall-finland-mania-part-two-why-did-scores-plummet

I agree with this. There’s nothing wrong with looking (and knowing how to look) smart and professional sometimes even if you don’t need to on a daily basis once settled.
My husband works in a warehouse type place. Jeans and t shirt all day every day. He still went to his interview in a shirt and trousers. (Not a full suit and tie as that would be overkill).
I work in medical so wear scrubs all day. I still go to interviews in smart clothes.

The problem with generally lowering standards in some cases mean they start to get too low and it seeps into other things. If you booked an appointment to see a financial advisor and they sat there in jogging bottoms and t shirt would that be ok? Or you do a zoom call with a Doctor and they’re in the pyjamas at home. Or you book a wedding photographer and they turn up in a bright pink tracksuit. Or maybe when you go to see a nurse for an appointment she’s wearing old crinkled clothes covered in old paint?

Once you are in a job and know the dress code it’s fine to dress however. But until then, there’s nothing wrong with learning what is smart and following the rules set by the place you are.
If school says smart attire, you wear smart attire until you have your tracksuit job.

As I said I work in medical so I’m in scrubs. In theory, there’s no reason why I need to be in scrubs. I could just wear tracksuit bottoms and t shirt. But it would look unprofessional and also my workplace specifies scrubs. So that’s what I do.

I haven't read the full thread but for people saying children start school too early that might be fine for those parents who are invested in their children's success and take them out to activities etc.

For children whose parents aren't doing much with them at all for whatever reason starting school is a lifeline. We've all read the stories of children starting school in nappies unable to feed or dress themselves. Those children need to start school so they are on the authorities radar and someone is looking out for them.

The general social order of things has really broken down over the last 30-40 years with most families having 2 working parents in order to survive and less involvement from grandparents and wider family.

My daughter is in P3 here in NI (so for 6 and 7 year olds). She started pre-school / kindergarten at 3 and P1 at 4 and is absolutely bored stiff by the curriculum and turned off from reading the same boring books (Biff and bloody Chip) over and over again.

I don't think they need to be teaching to a higher level at her age but making the curriculum more stimulating would definitely help!

That’s a really good point about uni being a measure for success- like you say so many kids come out of it saddled with debt and with a degree but very few life skills. Degrees do not measure the success of a curriculum.

my children are also in Welsh medium education. My youngest is in year 4 and her English reading is now at the level of an average English medium pupil in year 4.

I really do think the focus on skills and not knowledge is so much better in a world where you can just google any fact you want to know. My year 8 child is the first cohort to do the new exams with the new curriculum rollout I think. I’m really hoping the new curriculum is a success. I’m out of mainstream teaching and have been for a few years but it sounds good and I like that it involved the view of teaching professionals too.

Well with language in particular, this is far easier learned when very young. If reading, writing, spelling&grammar can be understood so young, it is much easier than learning later in life and sets them in good stead for their future. This doesn’t have to be at the detriment of playtime which is of course important.

There is a curriculum review under way at the moment.

I contributed to it (anyone could). It was a hell of a thing. About 50 pages of free text boxes covering the entire age range from 4 to 18!

Yes, and Ofsted requires parental involvement and checks for it.

So the inspection system would have to change too.

Same, I was reading and doing maths at home with my mum for fun way before I started school (not as weird as it sounds, adults do Sudokus for fun).

I think the biggest issue would be enforcing discipline and the low level of parental involvement. This is something the Finnish population has become accustomed to and accepts over time.

The behaviour children and young people (and tbh parents) display in British schools is miles away from what Finnish schools demand.

I think you're basing your op on your own kids. My DS taught himself to read at age 3 and my Dd has picked it up very quickly since starting school and is really enjoying it. They've both flourished. There's no one size fits all solution, waiting until age 6 to start school would have been detrimental to mine.

School is right, sorry.
DH is a freelancer and works from home, he spends most of his working day in jeans that are held together more by prayers than fabric, but he still puts a suit on to meet clients, because it's a non-verbal signal that you take the other person, and the job they might give you, seriously.

Oddly enough your DH seems to have learned appropriate dress depending on situation. He’s not wearing a suit and tie daily, regardless of activity which is what we’re expecting teenagers in school uniform to do.

I can’t see how wearing a blazer to learn cookery or undertake science experiments adds to a child’s learning and it’s not at all reflective of the workplace, where you would dress for your day. There are days I need to be in formal dress and days when leggings and a jumper are perfectly fine. Certainty no one is checking my shoes don’t have a logo, or my tights are the right colour.

It may be training people to be unthinking, compliant work bots, but that isn’t what I want for my kids.

Wrap around care.
it's common practise in countries with short days at school.

For the first two grades (and for all children with higher sen needs) there is after school club that starts as soon as they finish their last lesson and goes on until 5, and in most schools there's morning club too (alas not my son's primary school, except for in preschool) but children are expected to be more independent so childcare isn't needed to the same extent as in the UK.

Nailed it.