To think the British educational system is all wrong?

That's why I said "classic" — we still have an education system that is better suited to train people for factory labour. You're absolutely right that many modern workplaces (and self-employed or freelance situations) are much less arbitrary and restrictive than school is. UK school is not good at fostering a life-long love of learning, and it's not good preparation for the world as it now is either.

So Finland's population is a little smaller than those of Manchester and Birmingham added together.

While greater London and the SE accounts for about 30% of the UK population of around 68m.

However, in reality there is no magic answer or short cut and you won’t get a well educated population without putting in a decent amount of time and effort in into academics in childhood.

You also won’t get it without decent investment at the chalk face. Teachers need to be able to focus on actually teaching, not being all things to all pupils, not filling in roles that belong to other professionals and not trying to parent the kids they are teaching. I’m all for pastoral support in schools, but offered by trained professionals not by teachers adding a bit of extra training into their skill set.

Part of the problem is assuming that because most kids are at school, school is the best place for everything from mental health and social care support to complex needs assessment.

There is no evidence finlands success in education is related to starting at 7. Many countries with very poor educational outcomes have kids starting at 7- no one ever mentions them in this “stat”

PISA scores (which places Finland near the top globally although not recently number 1) also rank the uk education system very highly, so we can’t pick and choose what we think it’s useful for.

there is a fascinating book looking into the reasons behind high scoring education systems. They are overwhelmingly societal and point in time, and in the main this is not replicatable in other countries

it was identified 10 years ago that one factor in Finland’s successful education system was the complete lack of immigration. The authors suggested it would be interesting to see what happens in the future as Finland was starting to welcome migrants and refugees. It has steadily slipped down the rankings since then.

yet no right thinking person would suggest we ban foreigners to make out education system better (and it wouldn’t work, but you know what I mean)

What a lot of people seem to think in schools is about 'preparing kids for the workplace' is actually priming kids to get into lessons and do the work. It's about school, not the workplace.

If anyone really thinks about the effort required to get a bunch of teenagers to go into lessons and engage with the content, it's incredible.

That’s very interesting, thanks for the update. Finland is often held up as the pinnacle of education with children starting school later and leaving with higher levels of education than in the UK. However, in reality there is no magic answer or short cut and you won’t get a well educated population without putting in a decent amount of time and effort in into academics in childhood. That being said, there are many ways to skin a cat and it maybe that the Finnish way is better in some aspects.

The structure of school rather than the content prepares them for the classic workplace: turning up to somewhere at a set time, obeying arbitrary rules, following instructions and being assessed.

I’m not sure I agree. I don’t need to move myself and my belongings every 45/60 mins, and completely change my focus from one subject to another, and have a new supervisor and adjust to their way of doing things 4/5 times across the day. If I forget to bring a pen I can usually find one in the office, as long as I’m dressed appropriately no one much cares what I’m wearing. I can choose more technical work, or people based work to suit my preferences and personality. I don’t need to work with people who are disruptive and certainly don’t need to accept discrimination or bullying.

If I thought my experience of work was going to reflect my experience of school, I’d never have gone to work. If we made adults work in the way we make children learn….

Similar population to Scotland, where education standards have declined alarmingly.

Scotland switched to a progressive education model. People arguing for a 'creative' curriculum and soft behaviour management should really look at the outcomes there.

They would for my company. We advise smart casual for interviews but someone turning up in a t-shirt wouldn't make the slightest difference to whether or not they got the job (assuming there wasn't an offensive slogan or similar!). Ditto tracksuit and messy hair!

Companies are different and have different dress code standards. Kids need to be taught that and that it's important to find out what is appropriate.

It’s also easy to cite a system in a country that works well, but ignore the fact these countries have minute populations in comparison! Finland has 5 million residents! It makes such a big difference when there are far less people to look after.

Similar population to Scotland, where education standards have declined alarmingly.

At the age of five, children are worlds apart already in speech, understanding, ability to concentrate and general experiences. Perhaps that isn't so marked in some other countries. We can't cherry pick aspects of systems elsewhere.

I don't know much about primary schools but as a former secondary school teacher I know that a lot needs to change. Unfortunately, throughout my career I saw recognition of failures leading to so-called improvements which made things even worse, so I have no faith that much will improve.

I'm in central Europe, we start school at 6, with one year before being compulsory kindergarten, unless parents prove the child is progressing at expected level to be ready for school (mostly used when parents choose alternative private pre-school).

For me the biggest difference is how early you stop the general education - in my country students on academic track study all subjects (3 languages, all sciences, history, ...) until 19, students on less academic track study everything until 15 and reduced volume till 17.
And yes, I believe people are better equipped for living in this world afterwards, having more solid basic grid to attach more information to it, recognising more patterns.
Starting earlier can't offset it, because the ability for abstract thinking comes with brain development at puberty and the extra few years of learning with more mature brain allow for things to click together.

The second biggest difference is that we don't freak that much about tests. 11, 15 and 19 is enough.

We don't have school uniforms and we just wear jeans and T-shirts at school. The ability to dress for occasion is trained through ... occasions.

But I think the idea that you need to be aware of how you present yourself is still an important one and it absolutely should be taught in (secondary) school. I completely agree that it's not as simple as 'put on a suit' (not that it ever was for women) but I work in tech and when an external service provider comes in in a suit and tie its either an immediate sign that they don't have a lot of experience working with tech companies or a red flag that they may not adapt their style to our needs. The clothing would not in itself stop me working with someone but I would take note and be watching out for other concerns.

I've also seen female new grads wearing clothing that isn't really office appropriate (too short or low cut). In theory it doesn't matter where I work, but people are human and it does impact how you're perceived. With that it's generally that no one has actually taught them they need to think about the image they present. Is it the job of school to teach this? Well no, but if you leave it to parents then the kids who lose out are again the ones without support (either because their parents don't care or don't themselves know).

The structure of school rather than the content prepares them for the classic workplace: turning up to somewhere at a set time, obeying arbitrary rules, following instructions and being assessed. Under this model, the specifics of the curriculum doesn't really matter — kids forget most of it as soon as the exams they crammed for are finished anyway.

I don't think education turns us into sausages and I massively value the random stuff I remember from school like poetry, history and science stuff. The more education you have, the more choices you have and if you have the brains and wherewithal not to be x worker bee then you can crack on. We need to train people to work as otherwise we are a bit stuffed I think. I would like to see more trade schools. Being able to read is an amazing skill to gain young as it opens up so much more to children.

I see our society getting dumber and dumber so am all for the so called sausage factory and would hate state schools not to cover some of the poetry, literature, art and history of our country. And if course maths is useful but I think there should be more differentiation so those likely to proceed to mathematical careers do the less used in "real life's maths.

Schools should also be able to spend the last month after GCSEs covering proper meal planning and basic cooking, first aid certificate, food hygiene certificate, budgeting, tax, CVS etc. I work with young adults and the level of ignorance and the barriers to work are high. Good parents do a lot of this but we have a lot of dysfunctional families and generational incompetence.

The mortgage idea above is crackers unless something drastic happens to house prices.

No. Sure Start doesn't exit anymore.

It’s also easy to cite a system in a country that works well, but ignore the fact these countries have minute populations in comparison! Finland has 5 million residents! It makes such a big difference when there are far less people to look after.

People often complain that we aren't preparing kids for the world of work.

For me I guess the issue is that things like overly restrictive uniform is cited as “preparing kids for the workplace” when it really doesn’t. The school environment is not like a workplace, other than for staff who work there and kids would be better served by recognising we do school in the way we do but it doesn’t reflect the workplace much. Kids leave school having barely coped thinking their working life will be more of the same, when it generally isn’t.

I'm interested to see that the solution to Y6s unable to dress themselves and tie laces is to start education later!! Surely that's a disengaged parenting failure? Such kids should have been in SureStart!

It is a parenting failure (we were guilty of the tying laces bit) and sadly SureStart funding was cut. Does it even exist anymore?

Comfy and smart aren’t necessarily different. I have many smart dresses. Every one is v comfortable.

I understand that at least one 'liberal' Scandi country has ditched one pre-formal-school year recently as the kids began to drop down the Pisa charts, so starting 'school' earlier....

One theory is the now ubiquity of tech, so kids aren't running around the forest, they're scrolling on phones.

We always 'cite' Finland but we overlook that their education system is way better funded than ours, their teachers more highly valued (and qualified) and, a biggie, everyone buys into the 'social contract'.

I'm interested to see that the solution to Y6s unable to dress themselves and tie laces is to start education later!! Surely that's a disengaged parenting failure? Such kids should have been in SureStart!

People often complain that we aren't preparing kids for the world of work. If we were, we'd be teaching touch typing instead of Shakespeare, how to use Excel instead of solve quadratic equations.

There is a lot of debate about what education is for (one of them being keeping kids off the streets and out of the unemployment statistics). I'm not sure it's particularly meeting any of the briefs at the moment - workplaces complain that kids haven't got work skills, universities complain that kids haven't got study skills.

I have a 17 year old with ADHD. He’s creative, bright, witty and wise beyond his years.
He didn’t finish high school, they put so much effort into squeezing him into a box he didn’t fit and no time encouraging him to explore the things he was good at. He lost his spark for a time and suffered with terrible anxiety.
I’m not really blaming the school but the outdated system they have to teach within.
He’s 18 in May and believes his chance of a job or career are out of the window because he didn’t get any GCSE’s.
It’s a hard slog trying to bring back his confidence.

Do you think a 21 year old who turned up to an interview (Teams or otherwise) in a T-shirt would be taken seriously?
Did you do your Teams interviews in a tracksuit with messy hair?

Do you think people learn to dress for the occasion because someone checks the colour of their socks at school? Do you think a young adult wears the same thing all day every day, eg to a wedding, a night out with friends, their part time job?

Secondary school does many things, preparing kids for the world of work isn’t one of them.

Agree that they start too young. Don’t agree that they spend too much time in school. Where we are, state senior schools finish at 2.45 some days and 2.15 on Fridays. No wonder they’re given hours of homework.
Ours were in lessons from 8.45-4 with homework club until 5. Everything was done at school and their time at home was their own.