To think the British educational system is all wrong?

Posters are endemic as school work, homework, easy cover lesson and something to put on the wall, all the way through primary and well into secondary. I’m never sure they add anything much to a child’s learning.

@LittleBearPad Yes I think so too. Teachers were clear that homework was not meant to be a burden and what a poster does to aid understanding of a subject is questionable. It’s a lazy homework in my view. Practicing maths learned, writing, reading and being read to are more important in small amounts.

I imagine it is optional - at most a quick drawing would be more than enough. It’s possible OP’s child’s teacher is a bit more creative than my own who were more like yours - bit of handwriting etc. Either way I think they’d be horrified to find out half a day was being spent on anything they set.

Agreed.

A depressing shift in the country. Unions are important and should be supported, without them we would have very poor working conditions. At least three quarters of workers are in a union in Finland, across all sectors, don't think there is any sector that doesn't have a union, so while people might grumble at strikes that effect them, they still respect them. The UK is heading down the wrong road with unions.

@poetryandwine In 1979 we had a high of 13.2 million union members. Yes, all sorts of industries represented. Now it’s 6.3 million and a far higher proportion in public sector or utilities. Public sector numbers over 6 million so it’s clear to see a correlation. In many highly paid sectors of work there is low union membership. Unscrupulous bosses might exist but most are not and not sure this is ever the case in the public sector with better pensions, maternity and employment benefits.

Edit: some union bosses can be awful. (Also others of course)

I agree HW is not much of a necessity in the early years, @TizerorFizz . I suspect the fact that parents pay for kindergarten, albeit it is subsidised, is part of the reason I didn’t easily find attendance figures and perhaps this is why.

I agree with your characterisation of a prescriptive curriculum and freedom on teaching methods (to the extent of my limited understanding). I think that characterises both Estonia and the ROI. It sounds good to me.

Surely the question of unionised workers is complex. If they are mostly public sector, surely that has something to do with the decimation of our manufacturing base. In the private sector unions provide necessary protections from greedy bosses - in America they led the fight to protect workers from asbestos related diseases. Was not the same true here? The Americans who gripe about the ‘high salaries’ of unionised employees tend to be doing very well themselves. It always feels to me like pulling up the ladder behind you.

I wish unions weren’t necessary and I know. they can be overdemanding. Some bosses are awful. But I just read that today, 6 Jan, the average FTSE 100 CEO has earned the pay of (mostly) his average worker. I believe in capitalism, but that is unbridled greed. It isn’t good for society. We have the rivers, the trains, the schools, the industry and the health system to show for it. Apologies for the rant.

@Natsku Im suggesting there’s been a shift in this country. Look at nhs professions. Lots say they aren’t respected but it’s highly unionized. Most unionized workers are in the public sector and they are more likely to say they are not valued.
@LittleBearPad My DC never did posters I bYR or Y1. We had reading and some maths. Took hardly any time at all. A posted is surely optional for infants? I think the op needs to look at the homework policy (what is homework for?) and not take so much time getting to school.

@poetryandwine Estonian parents also pay for kindergarten education. It’s a proportion of the minimum wage. We expect excellence for free. I also think the curriculum in Estonia is prescriptive but not in how it’s delivered. However with a highly educated workforce this is likely to have good outcomes. I also think most dc here are happy with school. I used a prep for DD2 from age 8 and DD actually enjoyed her homework and it never took too long. It’s also barely necessary either.

You’re choosing to spend half a day on a KS1 poster at the weekend - if isn’t necessary. 20 minutes will be fine.

Why is your journey to school so long - 45 minutes is unusual in primary?

Yes, @TizerorFizz , Estonians do take very young DC but I could not find the proportion that attend before age 5. I think it is excellent that what I would call ‘nursery teachers’ at home - I don’t think there is a mainstream British equivalent - hold degrees.

I am interested in the similarities between Estonia and the ROI. One I forgot to mention is that on the PISA both have high floors - the weakest pupils are doing relatively well, along with the strongest. That’s a big measure if success in my book.

Both countries have a national curriculum to some extent but enshrine autonomy also. At least formally. It is a marked contrast to the UK.

Your DDs and many other DC who love to read are exposed to lots of reading at home. The appreciation of language gained thereby may implicitly provide the whole language side of the Irish approach, no?

Estonia is the overall European success story of PISA but the ROI is the really remarkable story for literacy.

Getting rid of older teachers seems to be a fairly recent thing. Years of excellent evaluations, then suddenly the teacher can do nothing right. The stories I have heard are harrowing. They tend to feature (very) young, inexperienced Heads and budget crises also.

In no way am I suggesting that every young Head is incompetent, but I think the burden of being open to the value of experience - whilst persuading your staff that Because We’ve Always Done It That Way isn’t a good justification for anything - is one that few know how to bear.

@Meadowfinch that's bullshit. It's not taboo to ask that ? It's not really the kids who have been in nursery who don't have the life skills it's the drongos who have kids and think parenting is staring at social media on their screens. You see them everywhere children getting totally ignored because parents are in their phones it's everywhere you go.

We moved from English system to Welsh - eldest was Y6 and frankly she had a much better year without SATS with stress than her peers left in English system.

However overall Welsh systems is behind English outcomes - I think Scotland is as well now having once been better - not sure on N.I and how much they differ - I know GCSE wise it's a mix of English GCSE and their own exam board - or was a few years ago.

Beyond that it's hard to know how much is the system being different and how much the individual schools they attend were different.

I do think reading and maths teaching in their primary was too much and not enough school catch up when they were young - mine were all summer born with problems - neither system wanted to address.

I do think entire system of schooling not great but there are things I prefer with Welsh exam system and things I dislike. I think the entire sector is stalling under teacher storages extreme work loads and ever increasing parental expectations on schools and government ever changing demands on schools.

Though even my struggling summer born kids could with extra support at home learn some reading and maths and once over hurdles actively enjoyed doing so and felt empowered. So don't think waiting till 7 is best - though perhaps there are better ways of teaching to such young kids.

Why is there a correlation between a unionised workforce and a loss of status in the UK? That seems like such a strange thing to me. Unions are very very normal in Finland, I don't know anyone who isn't in one. Teachers have a union, and they go on strike, yet they don't lose status here.

@poetryandwine If you look deeper into Estonian kindergartens, they take dc from 18 months until 7 and staff all have degrees. It’s not child care. Plus the dc have literacy classes and can read before entering the next phase. There are some interesting comparisons with Finland about early acquisition of reading skills in Estonia. The difference in Estonia is high use of technology and a kindergarten national curriculum. Teachers get flexibility but they find the brightest dc at the best phase have acquired good literacy skills. So no one is there is waiting until 7 to start. In fact there’s quite a lot of reference to inside teaching and outside play.

Therefore it’s possible home life, qualification of teachers and expectations all play a part. The curriculum is very technology based but dc need literacy skills to access it.

Every single school I have ever been involved with valued good teachers. All good teachers stay in post if they wish to. Everyone knows recruitment new ones is difficult so there’s no trend to get rid of good teachers. If teachers are ill a lot or have significant issues, the schools negotiate release. What I don’t think many young people like is joining a workforce that’s heavily unionized, has poor management at times and has difficult parents and poorly behaving dc. There are easier jobs. I also think there’s a correlation between a unionized workforce and loss of status in this country. Estonian teachers don’t think they are well paid apparently but do they strike?

I have a lot of respect for your views generally, @TizerorFizz . I have been looking, albeit briefly, into the question of learning reading via play.

Estonia with its play based approach to education until age 7 ranks 6th in the 2022 PISA. The ROI ranks 2nd. These are the only European countries in the top 10.

With apologies to those who know the Irish system better than me: In the ROI it appears that children begin school around age 5 and the first reading band is age 5-6. It seems that the preferred teaching method is a combination of phonics and whole language learning.

The ROI is committed (at least in theory) to local autonomy for schools and teachers, and to engagement with communities and families. There also seems to be an emphasis on a research-informed approach to reading. In the early years children do approach reading as play to some extent.

The fact that they learn to read in both English and Irish and (I paraphrase slightly) ‘must learn that the sounds letters make change magically at different times of the day’ is an additional challenge but also research fodder. (Estonian children also learn other languages but I don’t know much about this)

From what I can see, the ROI and Estonia have in common a respect for teachers and schools, shown by the autonomy granted them; a more play based approach to early learning; better community relations; and a greater involvement with educational research than the British.

I recall your earlier post about how the teachers of your acquaintance are a mixed lot. Isn’t that true of most professionals? Also I sometimes wonder to what extent they have been ground down. Of course this becomes a problem of the chicken and the egg.

As for teacher unions, I am aware of a number of cases of successful older teachers with no history of problems being chucked out on flimsy pretexts. It is a money saving device, as they are on relatively high salaries. Unions are their best protection.

The average age on the admin side is plummeting, as people with the knowledge to do the job right don’t find it worth the stress. The necessary wisdom isn’t always there from what I hear.

I see merit to the idea that a good MBA or similar degree could be useful in a Head. But not at the expense of substantial classroom experience - they need the full package. And they mustn’t become glib. There is far too much of that in HE already and it is killing the sector.

Then keep them at home surely? School cannot cater for every single want of every parent. Some want their kids to start school at 7. Others want their kids to start at 5 but only playing for 2 years. Others want their child to be at school for 3 hours a day only but learning in that time and then come home to play. Others are teaching their kids to read before they even start school so the kids are bored at school and would like to learn more. If someone has that strong feelings about how they want their child taught/not taught I think they need to home school.

For me, I didn’t like school until we started learning things. My mum talks about me complaining it was too long and boring for the first couple of years. Maybe for me starting school at 6 for 3 hours a day sitting at a desk learning would have been perfect for me! But I am aware that would not suit many others! Especially working parents!

Just how much time do you need to spend with your DC?

Don't you work?

As has been pointed out, if you don't want to send your DC to school then the option is to -let them play at home home educate.

Mine is also 13 and we are in a similar situation. She is at a grammar school, very bright but has severe anxiety associated with ASD. All the SEN schools round here are for children who also have learning difficulties. It is very stressful.

@Brainstorm23" We've all read the stories of children starting school in nappies unable to feed or dress themselves. Those children need to start school so they are on the authorities radar and someone is looking out for them".

We shouldn't push for every child to be institutionalised because some parents are neglectful. There's harms in that too. Its taboo to ask how many of these kids lack basic life skills because they've been in nursery full-time from the moment they can hold their head up, with parents working long hours with no chance to nurture them.

@CookiePlough There might be no need for your dc to read at 4 but my dc were more then ready. They had done a load of phonics at nursery and DD1 especially loved books and language and wanted to read. No way was playing enough. She is August birthday and did not need holding back. Not all dc mature at the same speed and some advance more quickly than others. Some are much brighter than others and their needs should be met too.

In other countries parents do buy books! They really do start reading when dc are ready. I’ve met dc who were wholly taught by parents and just because the system is meant to be play there’s a whole load of dc who do more because they need it. They are frustrated and bored if they don’t.

Also what homework!? Took around 15 mins a night! Not remotely onerous in YR. We whizzed through it. If dc struggle then they are slower developers and maybe should play but that doesn’t mean my dc should be held up. My DC did dance and gym clubs after school in YR and we had time for everything. And play at home. The weekends were all play! That was just fine and sometimes other dc came home with us after school to play and stay for tea. Hours were spent playing. You need to reiorganise your day or change school.

So home educate then. I'm the UK, school isn't compulsory. You can keep them home until 7, or 11 or the whole time.

There’s all weekend to play. YR certainly is not just play. Have a look at the curriculum and see what dc should do. Play is part of how dc learn but it’s not the only method used. Learning to read via play doesn’t work.

But the school day isn't long. Schools round here finish at 3.30 at the latest.