To feel that many men are totally unprepared and unsuited to domesticity?

I never wanted to get married.

The idea of being trapped with one man for years always filled me with dread.

I'm 40. Never married. And I'm really happy. I go out on dates with different men when I feel like dating. There's still plenty of men in their forties who enjoy casual dating.

Given that throughout history male house servants / slaves existed it’s clearly inaccurate to state “everybody thought men genetically incapable of housework”.

It by also conveniently ignores the existence of house proud men. How can they exist if men are genetically incapable of doing housework.

Plenty of men are great husbands but you dont come on parenting forums to moan about the good ones. Anyway we as women need to be more discerning, they are only husbands and fathers because we didn't get rid

^^ See

”Men are biologically programmed to be useless partners!”

😂

Yes I agree. The men I feel genuinely sorry for are the ones who had kids because they genuinely wanted to make their partner happy and didn't realise they were giving up the life they wanted instead. Especially the ones who had kids young before they did what they really wanted to do in life and now will never get the chance.

This is what put me off marriage and dating tbh.

It just seems like the expectation is to make my life harder carrying the burden of another adult for no good reason that I can see.

And any expectation of them of being an equal partner is unrealistic because “biology has not made the that way”.

I pass.

@devilspawn

Most men don't actually want to be dads. They agree to it because they like sex and they want to shut their partner/mother up and they don't realise what they're getting themselves into. There are some men who genuinely want to be dads, but not that many, and usually there are big chunks of fatherhood they dislike, like the baby stage. Even men who want to have kids and have had a happy family for years describe having kids as "getting it out of the way" and putting their foot down about too much grandchild interaction.

I think this is true, sadly. Very few men naturally want to be a hands-on parent and really be good at it. The good ones will over time come to appreciate their kids and rise to it, another fairly sizeable chunk never really love it but crack on with it because they understand that its their responsibility. And then there's another large proportion who are just unremittingly bad at it and try to dodge responsibility at every turn or run away from it.

I think most men come to recognise, when their kids are grown, what a huge sacrifice their wives/partners have put in but I think very few naturally love it.

That's not to say, though, that we need to accept suboptimal parenting and domestic life from men. They've signed up to it for whatever reason, they shape up or ship out. Doesn't matter how much money they earn, it isn't a get out of jail free card to avoid life with children and the domestic life that goes with it.

But again, this is why it's a bad idea to rely on one for money. If the money is the only thing they bring to the table then they will always be suboptimal and you're always better off on your own.

Women are a huge part of the problem.

Many women treat their sons like babies. And set them up to be like that.

My mum used to tell me stories of her mother expecting her daughters to do every chore around the house.

My mum said that she used to ask my gran why the girls were doing every chore in the house, and the boys were doing nothing. My gran replied to her "that's women's work". The boys weren't expected to lift a finger. My mum could see the unfairness of this.

However, now my mum is the exact same!
I have one sibling , a brother.

We both went to my mums house at christmas. My mum waited on my brother hand and foot. He was rude to her the whole time. She kept making excuses for him "ah well he's not really able to cook, clean, put a bedsheet on, be polite"
I was expected to do everything for myself.

I've seen this behaviour so many times.

I know a family with two adult siblings. The brother is 42. He lives alone. His mother does his food shopping for him and his laundry for him. She drives his shopping down to him every week.
The mother does nothing to help her daughter.

It's not more complicated than taking responsibility for your choices.

Most men don't actually want to be dads. They agree to it because they like sex and they want to shut their partner/mother up and they don't realise what they're getting themselves into. There are some men who genuinely want to be dads, but not that many, and usually there are big chunks of fatherhood they dislike, like the baby stage. Even men who want to have kids and have had a happy family for years describe having kids as "getting it out of the way" and putting their foot down about too much grandchild interaction.

My partner and I don't want kids. He'd be a good dad, but he doesn't want to be a dad. As such he's great domestically because he has the time and energy to put into things he enjoys about it, like cooking, and has the patience to split the things with me that neither of us particularly loves, like putting the bin out. Plus, we only have to do a minimal amount of things and at most once a day or once a week because it's much easier not having kids doing things like throwing toys or cereal around on repeat. And he also has time for the hobbies and things he loves, so it's very balanced. As I do the same we're both equal and neither is resentful.

@CantHoldMeDown yes women need to challenge men and raise girls and boys that do better. But if men are lazy/useless/abusive that's on them, women are not responsible for men behaviour.

And yeah no of course it’s not genetics. What a nonsense, backwards and inane thing to say.

I was the youngest of 3, my siblings were boys and my mum was a single parent who loathed lazy men (having got rid of her ex/my dad who was one)

She made sure my brothers who were tweens/teens in the early 90s could cook, clean, iron etc. I was a daydreamer (later diagnosed as ND) and the youngest by 4 years so despite me being a girl, it was obvious to everyone my brothers were more capable with domestic chores and as a result they done the bulk of it and to this day are much cleaner and tidier than me.

I learned eventually in my late teens, but they were doing much more than me at a younger age. I know other examples where this has been the case too. It’s definitely nurture over nature.

It’s why men would claim a women’s place is in the kitchen but when it comes to getting paid to be a Chef, men would suddenly realise they can cook after all. Convenient isn’t it? And I’m sure the financial incentive and status you get from being a chef vs cooking for your family has nowt to do with it 🙄

@ThejoyofNC

He wouldn't have the quality of life he does now. The fact you see a man who provides for his family as useless is completely bizzare to me.

LOLZ. I provide for my family (I generate three quarters of the household income) and manage to cook, clean, do life admin, support my child with homework, all that good stuff. My partner also contributes on the home front: probably more than I do on balance, but if he wasn't around I would (and previously was before I met him) perfectly capable of being the sole provider and doing all those things.

Women who buy into this "division of labour" rhetoric are very quick to tell the rest of us that their domestic sacrifice has enabled their husbands to progress with their careers. You keep telling yourself this if it makes it easier for you to live with the choices you have made but it simply isn't true. Men are perfectly capable of being successful and doing domestic stuff, because a lot of women do it. Some men choose not to but there's nothing automatic about it.

It's perfectly possible for a person of either sex to be a "provider" and to also be an adult who maintains their home to a decent standard, cooks high quality meals and keeps their life ticking over. Some men and some women choose to limit themselves to one or the other and then overlay some cod biology to justify this but there's no science to this whatsoever.

@username299 it's way more complicated than we all have the same 24 hours in a day. Blaming women or making them feel crap for their choices doesn't solve anything.

@JFDIYOLO think a lot depends on parents. Mine brought brothers and I up to be independent. My Mum couldn’t abide the ‘mummy’s boy’ look 😂. Neither of my brothers are the kind to think domestic = women’s work. None of my friends (we’re in our 50s) has a Dh that thinks that either. My nephews and nieces, unsurprisingly, have partners with similar outlook i.e. not solely women’s work

Unless you're in a forced marriage, you're responsible for choosing your partner and you're responsible for what you tolerate.

Same! I’ve also found those same women don’t mind asking for help from “the village” ie. Female friends, and female relatives that they want to rope in to help while they ignore the fact their partner isn’t contributing.

@CantHoldMeDown why is it women's fault? . It's men that need to do better.

Its because we live in a patriarchal world and we are forced into gendered roles before we are even born. Girls growing up are expected to learn household roles more than boys are. Girls are expected to be soft and gentle, and look out for other people's feelings. Girls are given dolls etc to care for, whilst boys are given trucks. That's the way we are parented and socialised. It's only in recent years people are more aware of this.

Cooking and cleaning are basic life skills that everyone should learn. This is not in our genetics and it's ridiculous to say it is. There is an element of evolution in the sense that as a species women will invest in a nice stable home to raise strong healthy offspring, whilst as a species men will be unconsciously wired to attract women and spread their genes. But we are the most intelligent species, and we are more than our evolution. We have the level of cognition to think that 'oh, sleeping with and getting as many women pregnant as possible might not be such a good idea'. That's what separates us from animals.

There are still a lot of societal expectations around gender around though, especially from the older generations. My mum still does my 40yo brother's washing (he doesn't live at home) because he 'works hard' and 'men don't want to do anything after work, they want to chill', whereas I, a woman, am expected to get on with it.

I'm not sure why people keep going on about it's not just the mothers responsibility but the fathers as well.
Well, yes in an ideal world but obviously, these fathers are not up to it so the mothers need to so they can break this stupid cycle.
As mothers, we have a massive impact on how our children turn out so let's not underestimate that.