To just … not have toys?

Our son had a wooden train track, he didn't play with it independently but would if we built a track for him. He just didn't really know how to get started with it. I then might suggest things to him like how many wagons can he put on the train. Or I might play alongside with the other vehicles and then ask him to stop the train so they can go across the crossing etc. I find it all very awkward but he kind of needed to learn how to play IYKWIM.

Our nursery also had a 'tidy up song' that when it went on, everyone ran around putting the stuff back in the boxes. I found the same one online and we used it at home (it was a tidy up rhumba!). All a bit Pavlov's Dog, but it certainly worked.

I think it is both boredom and attention seeking - what he wants is your focused attention which is totally age appropriate

amzn.eu/d/dzcvZsD

This is really worth reading. It made me look differently at play and I try to incorporate it a lot more now, and it's made quite a difference.

My eldest DS (now 25!) was the same, I bought him a 3 step stepladder in the end and he spent months climbing up and down it - he’s a scaffolder now 😄

Do you ever sit down and play with him? With something like a toy kitchen there is so much scope for language development, talking about the food, where it comes from, how it “tastes”, what you are going to cook, who will be “eating” , using the language of cooking, stirring, chopping, choosing, mixing, boiling frying etc.

The same with a toy train set, or cars, so much prepositional land descriptive language , in front, beside, behind, next to, overtaking, etc. the big red car, the fast car, the little engine etc.

it is a bit unreasonable to expect young children to understand what they can do with toys,and certainly unreasonable to expect them to understand how much language development small world toys have the potential to give.

My DGS doesn't really play with toys, he loves books and will spend a lot of time reading. Even when he was unable to read he looked at pictures in a book for ages.

He will also jump up and down and any game that involves jumping is fair game.

I think that emptying toys everywhere is possibly him playing?

I think it can help some parents to learn more about play in early development. The play schemas used in Montessori education can be a really useful approach to breaking play down, and it actually helps explain some more frustrating or baffling behaviors like knocking things over, pulling all the books off the shelf, stuffing objects in weird locations, etc.

Your 4 year old is moving past toddler stage but this is still good starter read to understand the foundation of play, and there are more guides on the site. It also helpfully doesn’t focus on the idea that you need to buy a billion plastic toys.
https://www.onehundredtoys.com/understanding-schema-play-in-toddlers/

If he likes emptying things and is semi interested in trucks I'd start of with that.
My little boy likes to tip out all his small metal cars, and then use a bigger bulldozer to lift them into a tipper truck and empty them out of that. Over and over. Might be an easy starting point for you to play with him?

To answer your original question, you probably need less toys, but you can't get rid of all of them.
Depending what he has, you could get rid of half or two thirds, either bin if broken or key bits lost, or donate if complete and unbroken, or put away into storage if you think he may "grow into" the toy.

You have to manage outgrown toys in the same way as you manage outgrown clothes - you have to constantly be on top of it. Have a "donations" bag on the go all the time, e.g. at the bottom of your wardrobe - just put things in there whenever, donate when the bag is full and start a new bag immediately.

It is not good enough to say you just "forget" to rotate toys that you have put away. Would you "forget" to do their laundry or change their sheets? Put a reminder in your phone for a fortnights time to rotate stuff, and make it part of your routine.

DS also like a truck which held multiple cars inside it - he push that along and get cars in and out - DN likes toys he can carry round as well.

I think you are equating play with imaginative play, but there are lots of ways of playing that he might enjoy more and that you might find easier to do together- sorting and measuring toys (shapes, sand, water etc), board games, building, creative activities such as drawing and clay- for children all of these are types of play.

Maybe try some Orchard Games? My kids always loved these and something structured might be easier for you if you don’t like imaginative play so much. Children benefit from all types of play but they don’t need to do them all with you (especially if they go to nursery where they will encounter all kinds) so lean into the sorts you both like and don’t worry too much about the rest.

Re the mess- sounds like a source of anxiety for you. You can turn tidying up into part of the game but again it does need some engagement.

Finally, posting this article about hating imaginative play as it always makes me laugh

www.thetimes.com/article/c5ce1577-f015-4a7a-a9fe-e023abcfe359?shareToken=27b0df9ac96af1494df57130f4a626da

what would be considered a "decent toy" to you, then, and why?

This IKEA tunnel was a favourite of DS at that age. He used to crawl through it, sit in it, chuck balls and race cars through it.
The cat thought it was hers too and would play in it after he went to bed.
We also used to build towers with the blocks and knock them down again, or build cities and let the remote control robot attack them. 😂 Mine didn't do tea parties either.

An ice cream van seems a bit young for many four year olds.

What about one of those play car mats that he can put the cars on?

www.smythstoys.com/uk/en-gb/toys/construction-and-cars/car-toys/garages/play-city-rug-playmat/p/167876

I wonder if you’ve got expectations around what play is & how they should play?

Had older family who very well it has to be done like this and were very prescriptive - and the kids would lose interest and do something else - often felt like the toys were an excuse for the adults to play.

Fewer toys out and embrace the empty and cater for that - baskets/trolleys bags - big containers - sand/water play. Plus if they have access to toys at groups/nursery and are occupied at home with other activities I'd worry less

I have a sibling who emptied things out all the time. They are autistic. Also no interest in toys at all.

That on it’s own isn’t a sign though I don’t think…sibling didn’t talk, or like touch, for example. Emptied out food in kitchen, was very destructive in that respect.

BUT I wouldn’t be worried if your child doesn’t tick the other boxes.

OP, kids are all different in how they like to play, and it will evolve as they go through different stages. Climbing and active outdoor play is great, but kids do need to be able to play in more contained ways, and they need to do that alone, with adults, and with peers (preschool has the last one covered). But just like adults they won’t all like the same things. Keep trying different things. And I understand struggling with play as an adult - I enjoy most types but make-believe play was not my thing as a kid and I struggle with it now. Fortunately it’s ok to do 10 minutes of child-led play (devices down, give them your full attention and let them take charge as long as it’s safe and not grossly damaging), you don’t need to commit to entertaining your child like that for hours at a stretch. Around that age they often like to play conductor and tell parents what to be and what to do, and we inevitably get it wrong and they get to correct us. Go with it, this is normal and healthy. Sometimes I just go with the new instruction and sometimes I pretend to wildly misunderstand and do something extremely silly.

Dumping things out can be a sign of frustration, but it’s also an important part of child play. Lean into it. Get him containers with small items that he can sort and make patterns with, or just dump from one container to another. You can control the chaos by making sure he has a defined area (a rug is easy) and only giving him a few small containers at a time. At 4 he is undoubtedly well practiced at cleaning up his play, so mimic school rules where he has to put the things he was playing with away before moving on to the next thing. Let toys be used for whatever purpose he can dream up as long as it’s safe, and take cues from what he’s doing. If he’s hammering with something that will break, find something he can hammer with. Find him a variety of floor cushions and poufs he can sit and lay on and stack. Look for age-appropriate science experiments. If he likes to knock things down find big blocks.

Maybe try arts and crafts, play doh that sort of thing.

you seem to be only offering traditional ‘boys toys’.

Emptying things out on the floor (and putting them away again!) can be a type of playing! If you're not a a vroom-vroom-driving-the-car-around sort (which it sounds like you're not, and which is ok!). There are different ways to play: sorting the cars into colours, counting them, etc, as well as racing them of course!