DO NOT give your kid a smartphone this Christmas

By your logic we should literally why bother outlawing anything. Too inconvenient, why bother?

If you can’t see that the point it to encourage the majority not to engage in a damaging behaviour then I can’t help you. There is always a crazy hardcore of people who believe their personal rights override everyone else’s rights and safety. That’s what the police and court system is for. It would actually probably be cheaper the pursue these people rather than the thousands of cases rooted in teen social media use.

@Tsama You are genuinely arguing that government legislation has never successfully been enforced to outlaw anything. Really?

That ship sailed some years ago.

@WhiteLily1
Oh absolutely, things definitely can and need to change, they're doing in the most stupid way possible to get attention, doing it due to knee-jerk reaction, they 'll fail as I assume they know they will and then they can pat themselves in the back and say they tried, it's nothing but a performance.

Dangerous driving and theft are illegal for everyone though. Families (adults) are not doing it multiple times daily, social media they are.

Not to mention they're illegal and they still happen all the time, murder is also illegal and that doesn't stop people, to think smartphone and social media will be different is honestly baffling lol

Criminalizing social media not only is unenforceable but would clog the criminal system with stuff that is nothing compared to real crimes and ruin families.

Seriously, it's such a pointless and worthless plan that will inevitably fail at all levels lol

@Bontonbonbon
My experience is literally irrelevant because the ban is objectively impractical and can't be enforceable.

Your own opinion and your personal investment in it is not a big deal either.

I find funny you talk about expertise when you unironically think the ban will get nowhere, which just show how you have no idea how goverment and its resources work, and yes, it is hysteria like it had for radio, for tv, videogame, it's nothing new or special.

I don't need to use misogynistic phrases because your sex is utterly irrelevant to my point, you could be a man, a tree, a martian for all I care, I would say exactly the same, I also find funny you talk about 20 years of expertise and yet you think the goverment has power or resources to enforce such ban.

I have enough understaind to know how goverment needs to work with the resources it has and that they simply don't have resources to enforce such ban, goverment just can't do parents work when they have a bazillion of other stuff to do first, things will not change because of the scale of things, you accuse me of not having imagination, imagining that a utterly impractical unenforceable plan will work isn't imagination, it's delusion.

Bad things can't be stopped at the level you think it can, you use driving and theft as example, which is puzzling, did anyone stop driving accidents from happening? Did anyone stop thefts from happening? Did death penalty stop the worst crimes? Did arresting drug addicts and people who sell drug stop the drug market? No, and you know that.

Just to make a point, US alcohol prohibition didn't work either, cause what a shock, most people fought against it, social media will inevitably end the same way.

Such ban would only work if literally everyone, every single person in the country, decided to enforce it, it'll never happen, plain and simple.

Dangerous driving and theft are illegal for everyone though. Families (adults) are not doing it multiple times daily, social media they are.

Things need to change and can be improved. 100% I don’t think anyone would argue that. But banning social media online for under 16’s while the real of the population freely use it just won’t work. I admire the sentiment, I really do, and it doesn’t mean nothing can change, but this just won’t work any more than banning teens from all junk food. Yes it’s bad for you but it’s literally everywhere, engrained in society. It would be even more difficult that that to put outright bans on social media for under 16’s because as fast as you ban, another app or tech will pop up in its place, go viral and you would be back to square 1.

@Tsama And your experience of this is what? Your own opinion and your personal investment in it not being a big deal. Thanks for the ‘hysterical’ - got to love the easy dismissal of anything you don’t understand or have any expertise in as ‘hysteria’.

Next you’ll be using lots of other deeply misogynistic phrases like ‘pearl clutching’ and ‘Karen’ to make me feel like my twenty years of expertise in working with teenagers is worthless in comparison to your strongly held opinions.

You are wrong. Things can change, they will change. Taking the stance that things can’t be changed because you don’t have the understanding or imagination to see that doesn’t mean it won’t happen.

The position you are taking is weird. What you are essentially saying is that bad things can’t be stopped and we shouldn’t try because it is inconvenient and time consuming. Do
you feel that same about dangerous driving or theft. This is hard so let’s not bother is a strange take.

@Bontonbonbon
Enforcing also means being able to identify when children are doing what they shouldn't, which will be almost impossible cause they'll hide what they're doing.

Yes, make parents pay fines or even jail them, which will ruin families, make techers do it which will make children hate them even more, not to mention involve police, prosecutors and so on, which will waste everyone time and waste resources that are already stretched thin, what a geniuns idea lol

It's going to fail pathetically, plain and simple, it's not enforceable in the real world.

And you're so invested that your hysterical experience is universal that you don't care about how the idea is completely moronic and not enforceable.

The fact that you think I'm willfully ignorant while you unironically believe Australia ban will ever work is honestly hilarious, like the Australian politicians it's such a unihinged level of delusion that I honestly hope you're just trolling, cause otherwise it's just sad really.

You get your head out of the sand and wake up for the real world, it's not enforceable without breaking a lot of people rights and freedom, if goverment even had the resources to make such ban even work, which they don't, be prepared for disappointment since it's all you'll get from what Australia is doing.

@Tsama

Enforcing the ban is simple. Just prosecute the parents every time there is an incident involving a child on social media. Schools would love to be able to refer these to the police. Massive fine and jail time for being feckless and neglectful. People would soon stop. Couple that with enormous fines for the social media companies of children are found using the site. Very much the same way we restricted cigarettes.

You wouldn’t call it hysteria if you had to deal with the incidents I see on a weekly basis. You are so invested in the tech that you seem not to care about the real human cost. Just take a minute to think about what level of destruction to the lives of vulnerable kids you’d accept.

Having seen the the incidents, spoken to kids and parents I cannot take your comments as anything but wilfully ignorant. So what if a couple of hundred thousand kids have their lives fucked up as long as you get to have the tech you love so much. Get your head out of the sand.

@WhiteLily1
I didn't know about Australia ban, it's hilarious out of touch, makes me wonder what moron even put foward that idea.

Like, how will they even enforce that? Are we going to live in literal 1984? With Big Brother watching over everyone shoulders? lol

Seriously, even if somehow enforcing the ban was possible, only way to actually do it would be if for using internet you had to use your ID number and that it was impossible to create any other accounts without it, goverment would need to know everything you do online, where you are and so on.

People already think goverment has too much power, to enforce such ban we would need to literally become a dystopian society.

Whoever thinks that such thing is possible or a good idea is the literal definition of stupidity, I would even go as far as to say such person shouldn't be allowed to have children as to not taint humanity genetic pool due to how absurdly low IQ they are.

What are you talking about? I have extremely strict restrictions on my kids phones (teens) I am a present mum who is there for my kids each and every day when they get home, weekends, take them to amazing places outdoors, history, culture, museums, sports and all the rest. We don’t sit around on phones or slump in front of the tv with dinner not speaking. If anything, you would want me as your child’s friends parent because nothing much gets past me, my kids phones are monitored and restricted and best of all, my kids have been brought up to have morals and be trustworthy. So yes, parents like me you can trust.
I am stating the obvious that phones just won’t go away because you try to ban them. Australia has put forward a move to ban social media for under 16’s. How is this going to work in practice? Even they don’t know. No actual real plans have been laid out as far as I can see. Tell the tech companies they need to monitor ages? How is that going to work in practice then? And the worst of the worst isn’t on social media anyway. It’s on the internet, easily searchable.
You seem ignorant to be honest and it’s doubt ful you currently have teens.

Do you know what people really can't be trusted to make the best decisions? People who fall into hysteria and use nonsense arguments like comparing smartphones to alcohol and smoking.

Cheers!

@WhiteLily1 @MoreIcedLattePlease

Thanks for spectacularly proving my point! Parents can’t be trusted to make the best decisions for something that affects society as a whole. Cheers.

@Bontonbonbon
Comparing smartphones to smoking and alcohol is honestly a riot.

Also, goverment legistate? Keep dreaming, this situation will never, change, never ever, goverment will never try to do anything about smartphone and children because it's literally everywhere and vast majority of parents won't accept the change.

As for the hysteria, yeah it's imagined, same hysteria happened with for example Dungeons & Dragon, with rock and roll and many other stuff.

There's always something to blame for why the children are doing bad, it's never the parents fault lol

Thanks, my kids will be keeping theirs.

Did you know, it's possible to have a smart phone without social media? Such as instagram?

Laughable. Won’t have the slightest chance of actually working effectively in Australia and most certainly not here. Not for the foreseeable anyway and not unless there were something extreme and radical to happen and society was to reverse to a time tech wise 20 years ago.

@Tsama

You’re wrong. As someone who works with teens I can tell you that you are wrong about this being imagined hysteria. It is an overwhelming problem that affects huge numbers of kids. But it is not well publicised because kids and families are often too ashamed to tell people when something dark happens. The few stories you hear are the tip of quite a fucking enormous iceberg.

Find someone who is a pastoral lead at any school and they will tell you hundreds of very real stories which will shock you.

Look, overall this is the same thing as anything highly addictive that is banned for under 16s/ 18s. Smoking and alcohol in themselves are not a problem if you have good parents. Because those parents will make good decisions to help support their kids.

The issues is the parents making bad decisions. Not always because they are bad people. It is often a combination of ignorance, desperation, over work and, in some few cases, actual neglect.

The government legislates because the decisions of those people have a net negative knock on effect on the whole of society via antisocial behaviour and damage to health that costs the NHS money.

The same is true for the rising phone/ social media/ gaming addiction in children and teens. The government will be forced to legislate because poor parental decision making it is costing so much time and money to the police, the NHS, Social Services and schools. This thread makes it clear the quite a lot of people have not the first clue about what really goes on. Expect legislation like the one about the come i to force in Australia fairly soon.

@trivialMorning
You mentioned infantilization, something that comes to mind sometimes is how in moderm world we see ages different compared to the past.

In the past, not even necessarely far, like 100 to 200 years ago, you reached 18 you was effectively an adult and treated as such, hell in many places before that age you was already treated differently and expected to act maturely

Nowadays? Person can be like 25 and still treated as a teenager, hell some are 30 and most people don't see it that bad if they're still clearly childish and act as a teenager, though of course that varies by places.

I feel that kind of infantilization is also true for children and teenagers, of course children are children and that's not up to discussion, but a lot of people act as if children are brain dead morons who at any point will have their life ruined by some eeeeeevil influence.

Videogame is a perfect example of that, how much hysteria there was that videogames would turn children violent?

How much hysteria there was that Pokemon and such was gonna make children satanic?

I feel way too many people don't treat their children as being capable, coddle them way too much than necessary, sure our world is full of dangers and it's hard to protect our children, but I do feel our children are smart than most people gives them credit for.

Which brings us back to the issue of smartphone, if we don't raise our children to actually use their brain, to be responsible, to manage themselves, of course they'll become addicted lol

It’s not the phones that most people need to be independent these days as previous posters stated ( teens are learning these skills). Tech and devices have a place in modern society but we really do need to think about the negative impact.

it’s the time spent on any device from ages as young as months old watching videos and then social media and so on. That is the problem.

Ive worked with children and young people my whole working life ( 30 years nearly) and im in no doubt that devices/screens etc when used excessively are a detriment to a child/young persons overall development. Play: physical, roleplay, small world, arts and crafts, social and communication etc have been replaced by staring at a screen for hours on end. Playing a game on a tablet is not the same as physical play. Going out for a meal with headphones and a tablet is not learning social and communication skills.

Social media is doing terrible things to children and young peoples mental health. The amount of parents i meet that are proud their 8/10 year old child has xxxx followers on an app is scary!

Edited to add this was occurring way before lock downs ( i’m aware of the issues they caused) but they are not the sole issue surrounding this subject. I met children 15 years ago being bullied on social media/msn etc it’s not a new thing it is however getting worse

Parents don't have the time to sit down and talk to their kids. Nor indeed the space - lots of people don't have a dining table. Meals are eaten in front of the TV.

Family I grew up in it was on Sunday lunch always eaten together - DH was similar. With us it was because we argued about missing TV shows - tech moved on and since I was pg with first we've been able to pause TV - so that was a non issue with our kids. Our kids have eaten more meals with us than ever did with our parents.

We've also done that modern parenting thing that so often slated on here as many more days out doing stuff - it often derided as unnecessary on here - but it meant we were out doing things together as a family not slumped in front of TV like in my childhood. As we don't drive it was often time outside.

Post covid coincided with exam years and then cost of living - so we do this so much less and as a result spend more time in house but often less together.

So I to agree with many of @RedToothBrush points.

• *We've tried to spend more time with the kids perhaps because our parents were time poor and struggling with that days tech TV - and I know my parents tried to have Mum around more and do more than their parents did for similar reasons.

I think smart phones are a scape goat - the are a tool that yes is often misused.

Part of the reason I worry about the bus and train and people advocating for no smart phone for under 16 is because I then think it will be harder for under 16 to get the much needed independence and freedom of movement in some areas and it will just worsen infantilization which I think is also contributing to mental health issues.

@RedToothBrush
Excellent points, I'll try to add to them instead of repeating anything lol

I feel it's a lot of small problems intertwined together that just make things even worse.

Example, you mentioned community activities, community not having money, both parents not having time due to work, gang, children not having things to do, it's pretty much a domino effect or a cascading failure of our society due to capitalism.

Cost of living raises so father works more, soon mother works too, that means child barely interacts with them during the day.

Due to cost of living people can't use money in the community + they don't even have time for the community, so that goes down the drain.

Due to parents not being around a lot of children can't go out to meet their friends, so what they'll do at home? Videogame, internet, tv, that kind of thing.

If they do go out there's issue of gangs or worse, creeps since thanks to the internet you can easily find information about someone, find where they live, bait them through chats to meet and so on.

The children that do grow adjusted? A lot of times it's because someone was around, either because mother didn't work or a GP was around, though of course a lot of children grow up alone fine too.

All lockdown did was speed up a issue that was inevitable in the long run.

Like you said smartphones are a tool just like a gun, they can be dangerous so we need to teach children to use it right, but it's too easy of a scapegoat to blame for all things wrong in the child life.

About marketing, that's not even new, how many decades capitalism tells us that we need to buy the best and newest of everything we see, otherwise we're failures in life?

Honestly, you can't even blame it too much into poor parenting, how can you give proper parenting when we can barely manage in this economy that only gets worse? And will seemingly get even worse due to certain political parties in US fucking up the whole world.

Only way for us to make things better is if we can go back to have a community, be part of your children life, go play outside with them, that kind of thing that was the norm decades ago.

Problem is, how can we do that in this economy?

Really, people love to scream about political parties, religion, woke and so on, but the source of all the problems we have right now boil down to rampant capitalism, and unfortunately we are just too used to buy our happiness to really make much of a change at this point.

Either we'll have some massive changes in a better direction at some points or we're going straight into capitalist dystopia or society colapse.

Better start digging my survival shelter / bunker I guess lol

I agree with the points you make @RedToothBrush

It's about the whole of people's lives and the importance of communication, socialising in person, community, exercise and sports etc. so that online activity is only a small part of people's lives.

That was my point earlier about lockdown emphasising problems and adding to them because there were some months when it was very difficult for a lot of people to have lives outside of the online.

Yes, my DS had a smartphone when he went to secondary school, but he also spent a lot of time outdoors, enjoyed sports and exercise, his play station was only for linking games with friends he knew at school, and we spent a lot of time chatting. By the time lockdown came round, he was 19 and working. I know from friends who had DC a few years younger that they really struggled during this time, and also DS's friends who had been at university at the time.

At the same time as we've seen a rise in smartphones we have also seen a decline in community. Part of this is due to changing work patterns - more people are working longer. Women are not staying home. Community led activities have lacked people to run them as a knock on effect and/or they've become too expensive to run. So there isn't anything else for kids to do constructively and even playing out on the streets is frowned on - in part I think because people don't all know each other so there's not a sense of everyone looking out for the kids / knowing who the kids are. And again car culture means the roads are busier.

This means if you take away the smartphone or even the gaming, what's left for kids?

They can't play out. There's more gangs and drugs which we didn't have to the same extent a couple of decades ago. They haven't got clubs and youth groups to go to, which used to exist. Activities that exist are expensive and not local - you have to travel to get to them. Parents can / won't run stuff anymore. Even libraries have closed down so it's more difficult to borrow and book and read!

Kids often don't have anything else but to hang around bored or on phones / games.

What you see is the most well adjusted kids / teens are those that have parents who have facilitated them 'doing stuff'. Even in less well off communities. Parents who have helped run activities tend to have kids who are better able to cope.

I think it comes down to this:
Smartphones should be an aid to communication. They are an exceptional tool. But they are not a substitute for communication.

During lockdown our circle of friends did a regular zoom call where we did lots of activities and we had a whale of a time. BUT it wasn't a substitute for going to the pub or to each others houses and actually TALKING to each other.

If you have a smartphone/game, make sure you make time and you still DO things. As you say it's pandoras box. You can't rewind that. We have to learn to use tech responsibly and in a healthy way. Used well and effectively it's great.

I think it's probably more useful to teach healthy tech habits - just like food and drink.

And like alcohol and prohibition, I don't think bans work. Given that you can buy a smartphone for £35 and there are many kids who can get hold of that amount of money, if they really really want a smartphone they will get one if they are banned from having them.

I genuinely think that people want to ban because it seems a magic bullet. But it's a reflection of wider social issues caused by growing inequality in society on various levels (not necessarily just economic). People are working longer hours and kids are in paid childcare more - they are time poor. There's plenty of parents don't want to parent and won't say no to their kids.

The way things are marketed has become much more aggressive too. Not just through online stuff but also in the way things are framed through deliberately invoking peer pressure. Even if your kid isn't on social media and isn't shown social media they are still going to be subject to the stuff about 'the right trainers' we had as kids.

I dunno. I feel over 25 years into this because both DH and I were in online communities that long ago. We experienced much of these coming pressures in our mid and late teens that our peers have not - we feel disconnected from people our own age who haven't had this experience. We know it's a wild west. We know a lot of the bad stuff and we want DS to not be exposed to as much as we've seen / seen others experience. HOWEVER we also are well aware of the Pandoras box effect and know you can't escape it.

I don't just think banning works. The question that arises from restrictions is what replaces it - that comes back to my point about community and activities. The kids need alternatives available to do otherwise it returns to hanging around the park with vapes, alcohol, sex and drugs anyway and I fail to see how that's really much better. No one did surveys that accurately monitored how much of that was going on in the 80s and 90s did they? Indeed in some ways the fact it's now an online phenomena means we can perhaps quantify and measure antisocial / harmful behaviours in a way we couldn't before. Ask the question: If we took every mobile phone away from teens tomorrow would we solve the problems of feelings of isolation, bullying and crime? With nothing else to replace that void, you don't stop the social issues - you just get them to shift about and change how they manifest.

If we want to 'fix' this, it will require time, effort and money invested into young people. I really don't think there's a cat in hells chance of anyone raising that point politically at this time. Kids are the bottom of the priority list and no one sees free facilities for teens as a cost effective or worthwhile thing to spend time or money on. Meaningful change need to reflect that.

So yeah, block off time which is device free as a family. Eat together. Meet up in person. Go for a walk rather than drive. Take up a new hobby. Don't just preach that smartphones are evil because you miss half the fucking point.