What Should I Have Said? Re: Holocaust

Well we can't forget can we because Israel are repeating history as we speak because they use the holocaust to commit genocide themselves.
We can't forget.

I agree. It can definitely happen again. It is happening again.

What is all too clear is that what happened in Germany in the early 20C could only too easily happen anywhere else, including in the UK. It depends what the host meant by “move on”. It’s ridiculous to expect all Germans to bear some moral burden for what happened before they, or even their parents, were born.

Remembering is definitely needed. Just not blaming people that did not do it and may have fought against it.

The world should remember and learn not to make the same mistakes. Sadly the same evil is still happening today.

They should be ‘forgiven’ for something that they, in current Germany, had nothing to do with and are no more guilty than you or I.

You do from a large section of the population! A significant number of football fans objected to a German being made manager of the England team.

I live in Germany and I think there are two different "forgetting" meant. One is that Germans are a couple of generations from the people who did anything in WW2, so they should be allowed to move on. The other is forgetting what was done to the Jews (but also gypsies, Slavs, homosexuals and other members of society). AFAIK the Germans are very protective of Jewish interests and come down hard on threats against them. After October 7th immigrants were told in no uncertain terms that should they take part in an pro Palestine protest their applications for citizenship/residence would be delayed or even denied. As a result I don't think we ever had a pro Palestine protest. Though I cannot be sure that it didn't happen later, nor am I claiming that there is no anti Jewish feeling. The Jewish cemetery is no longer open to the public because tombstones were graffitied. So I think she meant that Germans have tried to rehabilitate themselves and should be judged on their present rather than their past.

You do, I know a few people who have a very deep hatred for Germans.

however, Germany have been good at reparations and decent at reconciling and admitting its atrocities. It’s acknowledge that collective guilt and trauma is a real thing in Germany. Great Britain hasn’t done this.

i have a South African friend who offered the perspective that the world is overly obsessed with the holocaust because the victims are white Europeans, whilst many other genocides have been committed since around the world that have been ignored or forgotten .

Whilst I see his point I am a big believer in never forget too.

I probably would’ve ignored the German person at dinner

I have known many Germans. I lived there. From the Germans that I met I found that they are suffering communal guilt over the holocaust. Something that in their lives they had nothing to do with. I think they should be forgiven. It’s a very difficult burden and unfair. It is actually the opposite of forgetting what happened.

I'm not really sure what was so offensive about what she said. Do you like being offended?

I remember meeting Germans on holiday, and some smartarse commenting on Hitler and the German people. They were frustrated by attack. It's really uncalled for, and not fair that all of Germany has been painted in such a terrible light.

I have a friend who moved from Germany a few years ago. One night we got talking about it as I was curious about how they were taught about it etc. She said there is immense shame around it, and they are taught about it because it must never happen again.

Perhaps she misheard something you were saying and felt defensive about it? As a person only recently in the UK she might have found that she is asked about it fairly regularly.

But she didn't say "Can we forget about the holocaust." I'm with her to a degree. Germany and most of the Germans alive today have nothing to do with that time. If modern-day Germans are still being made to repent for the sins of their fathers, then modern-day Brits should also still be made to repent for the atrocities their fathers carried out. Or, you know, we can acknowledge that people in the past did bad things, without taking it out on their descendants who are alive today.

I’d feel uncomfortable. 1) bringing up a massacre at a party is wrong. 2) Talking about it and then dismissing it with such ease is wrong. 3) no, we must not just ‘move on’, 89 years is no time at all and people MuST remember, not only for Jewish people but for all persecuted people. This is what can happen when a racist leader gets in power.

Anyone who isn’t uncomfortable perhaps doesn’t realise what exactly went on in concentration camps and just how they came about.

I once taught at a language school where a German kid talked about how he went on holiday somewhere and was hated by a couple of other teenagers 'because of the war'. He said it entirely matter-of-factly, just in passing, but it did make me think that it was a poor inheritance for him, to be bullied by other kids for something like that.

How odd that she randomly bought it up. If it happens again maybe say that she is the one who raised the subject of the holocaust and you'd rather discuss the vol au vents and stay away from discussing the holocaust at a party as you feel it has the potential to cause upset

I've heard the way Germans learn about it is not as we do. We learn it was a tragedy that should never be repeated- and so we should. They learn that as Germans they are sinners because it happened at the hands of Germans, and they should be ashamed. So rather than saying let's not learn about it I understand this as let's not make our children feel shame as though they did it. However she should have been more careful about what she said and how it came across.

If it happens again I would say well we’re still made to feel guilty for the UK’s role in the slave trade which ended over 200 years ago, so tough!
Seriously though, I think these things should never be forgotten, but I don’t think current generations should be made to feel guilty about it. I had absolutely nothing to do with the slave trade, so why should I apologise for something I didn’t do?

If I'd said anything at all, I might have sidestepped a direct reply by engaging her in a discussion about Bernhard Schlink's novel "The Reader" because that is exactly what it is about - the struggle to come to terms with the past in Germany for the generations since the war.

What was her response to your silence/facial expression OP?

No one said the host was culpable. The host brought the subject up and then dismissed it, which many people, including myself, would find insulting and disrespectful.

if she didn’t want to talk about it, don’t bring it up. If you want to bring it up and talk about it, do it respectfully.

Host clearly has no social skills or self awareness.

I think she has a point. If anyone was complicit, it would be one or more grandparents or greatgrandparents. There are only a handful of people alive now that would have been adult Nazis during the Holocaust. Saying the country has said sorry and asking people to move on from blaming today’s Germans for the Holocaust isn’t asking people to forget it happened. Germany has paid reparations for the war and 70yrs of reparations to Holocaust survivors and their Jewish descendants.

I have no idea why this would make you uncomfortable 🥴

Had you all been drinking?
I wonder if she meant ‘move on from the guilt’ ?

I think, around the world, many people automatically associate Germany with the Holocaust and Germans with compliance. Maybe she feels judged when she meets people from other countries, and she blurted out her thoughts.
Dunno. People are funny

you should have replied saying how aghast you were and that she of course should personally feel mortified for the actions of people who lived in the same country she was born in many years ago.
after all not a day passes that you or any other self respecting Brit isn’t consumed with shame at the atrocities committed by their ancestors across the globe.

When I visit sites in Germany that are connected with WW2, I notice that the guides are clear that the atrocities were committed by Nazi's as opposed to Germans. The events are, and should be, remembered.