What Should I Have Said? Re: Holocaust

There are quite a few existing German companies who benefitted from the exploitation of human beings during the holocaust. It's apparent that not all of them have adequately addressed this. Again, current generations shouldn't be blamed, however at least acknowledging the wrong actions of the past might be beneficial.

@Dramatic Britain deported family's "known" to be German & kept civilian Germans (ethnic Germans) in the Old empire in below poverty "camps" during & after WW2

They also deported "orphans" (British children from poor backgrounds) into labour farms abroad up until 1970 (orphans in the empire specifically)

They also ran anti-Irish sentiments against (British) Anglo-Celts well into the 90's

Please don't pretend England's crimes against others was just some historical attack on other country's
Britain has caused more pain, suffering & poverty over a longer period of time - including against their own people - then any other country in the world & just walked out the other side unscathed & still intact

Let that sink in.

Can you explain why it's disrespectful and dismissive? "Massacre" means killing a large number of people; quite literally what happened at the Holocaust. I can't think of why it would not be an appropriate word?

The holocaust was done by a much bigger proportion of the population of Germany than the slave trade...
Often forgotten is that civilians and governments of other countries were pretty anti Semitic too. Poland and the Netherlands for example.
Anti semitism was a mainstream viewpoint in Europe, even if other countries didn't go to the extremes that Germany did.
Other countries (UK and USA for example) knew what was going on and didn't allow even allow Jewish people to escape to their country, much less do anything to stop the death camps. Because it was unpopular with the electorate.
If Germans should still feel guilty about the holocaust then so should all of us.

Whereas the majority of British people in the era of the slave trade had little knowledge of anything outside their immediate environment and had a pretty miserable existence themselves, being exploited by the same class of people who were trading slaves. It doesn't make sense for ordinary working class Britons to feel responsible in any way.

I guess one difference is that Britain still has long term benefits from the slave trade whereas the holocaust wasn't beneficial to Germany

Is it the Muslims in Syria and elsewhere that you’re concerned for or only the Palestinians? Something about your comment tells me that antisemitism is alive and well today.

As the daughter of a German Jew whose family perished, the correct response, in my opinion, would have been:

"I agree, it was not due to many individual German people, it was due to the rise of fascism. That is why we must all now be responsible and not allow fundamentalist parties of any sort to take hold in any part of Europe or the UK, ever again. They are on the rise right now and we must all speak out and encourage movement to the centre".

People love playing goodies and baddies, and Germans have conveniently filled the baddie role for many decades. I can see why contemporary Germans are fed up with that.

I believe/hope that most of us who are thoughtful and knowledgeable about the Holocaust have a more nuanced response. My own family got out of Germany in 39. Part of why they left so late was because they just felt so German. Two relatives died fighting for the Germans in WW1. Two others were awarded honours for their patriotism and bravery, only to be murdered in camps in Ww2.

That lady could have been the descendant of frothing fascists, or of the lovely woman who kept my 90 year old great great grandmother hidden in Berlin throughout the war. OP could be the descendant of Brits who welcomed Jewish refugees into their homes, or of those who threw bricks threw my grandmother's window in London for the crime of being married to a German (it didn't matter that he was Jewish, that she was a teenager with a baby while he was interned as an enemy alien, or that she drove an ambulance through the Blitz).

Guilt shouldn't be inferred by association, or inherited. Only lazy people assert their anti-racism by demonising entire nationalities.

The holocaust was bigger than ww2.
It was an organised genocide.

And fuck knows how many millions of ordinary innocent people died in the USSR under Stalin...

The German people I know seem to have been part of a prolonged and deep national conversation about how the holocaust could have happened and accepting responsibility for it. There are many, many people in the UK who are still feeling nostalgic about the British Empire and turn a total blind eye to our involvement in the Transatlantic slave trade, believing the fact that we ‘abolished slavery’ absolves us of all blame.

We should never, ever forget what happened, or how it happened, but we also cannot blame current generations for the actions of those in past.

You didn't do anything wrong I don't think.

It's OK to not be drawn into a topic which could get heated.

She was not even born at the time of the Holocaust - it's not her fault.
War is terrible, whether then or now.

Sorry but Germany made Jewish victims infamous how many people can recite the pogroms or the Egyptian slavery or the American anti-israel/anti-Semitism compared to the holocaust ?!

It's the absolute milestone of Jewish suffrage & one of the only genocides openly taught in schools & through common media

This is a very interesting documentary about ordinary Germans and their war roles.

I agree with you, "dismissive and disrespectful to bring it up for the sole purpose to then suggest we need to “move on” from blame."

Germans shouldn’t shoulder the shame of the Nazi’s, same as religion doesn’t shoulder the blame of terrorism, but events cannot be forgotten as it dishonours the lives lost.

Fine as long as you still feel guilty about the slave trade, colonialism, the Irish potato famine etc etc.

She didn't actually say forget it, she said no longer feel guilty, I think there's a difference

Did she live near or around somewhere known for it ?

I know alot of places are so well known for something people forget there are people who actually live there = dachau/Berlin/Nuremberg ect.

She said move on from it. Not forget it happened.

My German friends are acutely aware of their country's history and role in WWII, particularly the Holocaust. By contrast many British people seem blissfully unaware of UKs colonial past or even the current territories. I can't comment on other cultures. If one of my German friends made this comment I wouldn't be shocked or horrified I would taken it they meant it in good faith, not as some sort of Holocaust apology. That's based only on a small sample of German people I know, but I should add i lived there briefly 30 years ago and found the same acceptance there at that time.

Do you think maybe you and lots of people on the I threat don’t understand the nuances and complexities of how the Holocaust is discussed and treated within Germany?

how do you know her position is horrifying? It might be an entirely reasonable position - she wasn’t saying don’t discuss the Holocaust - sounds like she was talking about imposing guilt on current generations.

it would be surprising if it came out of nowhere. Maybe you said something that SHE foind horrifying with you realising it

‘you know, it’s been 80 some years, can’t we (meaning Germany) move on from feeling guilty about the Holocaust? We’ve said we’re sorry, can’t we just move on from it?”

It sounds like a joke?? Was it supposed to be a joke? I can't imagine anyone bringing that up as a serious question in a conversation?

Very risky subject matter to be bringing up with people you don't know very well!

Descendant of German Jews here. I don't think Germans today need to feel guilty, but I don't think we should 'move on' from it either. I would have been interested to hear more from her about her experiences of being guilt-tripped and how she thinks the Holocaust should be memorialised.

Yeah.... I think the problem is that the "final solution" might have been created by Nazis, but it was largely carried out at the time by "ordinary" Germans. Assisted in some cases by Ukrainians, Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians.

But I agree that current day Germans shouldn't bear any guilt for the wrongs of their grandparents and great grandparents. Current day Germans have no responsibility for it.

At the same time, the holocaust should not be forgotten by anybody