What Should I Have Said? Re: Holocaust

What I mean is, of course we are sorry what happened. But it's almost like you're personally responsible for it, in the eyes of some people.

I was born and grew up in Germany, but my parents are not German - so I don't consider myself German. I moved to the UK when I was barely a teenager and I can say that I've faced all sorts of bullshit hitler chat throughout the years.

It's absolute bullshit. Yes, Germans literally feel like they should be sorry for what another generation did. None of my ancestors were German so they didn't even do anything, but that's beside the point. The amount of times I've been humiliated in public, at school, at uni and EVEN at work. You would not believe it. I'm not even German ! I don't look German. I just speak it.

I feel embarrassed when I speak German in public because I don't want people to see me as a German.

In a way, I am glad to see that history is also holding the brits accountable for what their ancestors did longer ago. At least you know how it feels a bit now to be German / perceived as German.

I wonder how many times this gets brought up when she's talking about her home country, to make her get on the defensive before it's mentioned.

I suspect rather more than is reasonable.

I don't think she or other Germans that were not involved should have to feel guilty for it. Just like I don't feel like I need to feel guilty for the colonisation of other countries or Britain's involvement in the slave trade.

I think that's a fair comment. Did she suggest forgetting about it? Because that idea seems to have come from you.

Perhaps we should all be reminded of atrocities perpetrated by our countries in the past. Lest we forget, sort of thing. But the English don’t like it either; look at the furore among National Trust members when the role of slavery and the slave trade in enriching privileged English people began to be highlighted.

The Nazis were also the German people, to some extent. The level of propaganda and indoctrination is something most of us in places like the UK won't even comprehend.

And you brought this up on a thread about the Holocaust in the 1930s/40s because?

Thank you for sharing this, sadly I don't find it a surprising testimony. Your post will get glossed over by many reading this thread but it's pertinent for all because atrocities against 'the other' have, and continue to be, a fact of all human civilisations; neither trying to sweep that fact under the carpet nor demanding that young generations atone for the sins of their forefathers does anyone any good. Nor does paying lip service, pretending to yourself as much as anyone else that you're actually listening to others, putting yourself in their shoes, questioning your assumptions etc when in fact you're just waiting to share your preconceived and righteous 'point of view'.

None of my posts were removed

And as far as i can see Israel has not been singled out on this thread. It's not about criticism of a state or government (and none should be above criticism). We remember the Holocaust to remember the victims, to remember the suffering and to ensure it never happens again, yet genocides have happened since and are happening right now. We don't seem to learn from history. As a previous poster said - history doesn't seem to repeat itself it rhymes.

She said move on from the guilt not forget about it. That’s reflecting on guilt carried within the culture which perhaps she was especially conscious of, having recently moved.

Something may have triggered what she said, but it seemed rhetorical anyway and better you didn’t say anything. What you wanted to say wouldn’t have helped.

I'm in Krakow now for a few days, visiting the Christmas market and the sights.

We were in Auschwitz yesterday. Sobering and devastating. There were various nationalities among the visitors, including some Germans. At no point it occured to me 'oh, you! You did this!'. I mean, I'm originally from the country who is (shamefully and unfortunately) known for aiding nazis in killing Jewish people (also there were those who saved them, but that doesn't change the shameful fact). I'm not proud of my past-countrymen, but I'm 36, I do not feel responsible for their crimes in any way. Same goes for the current Germans. If I'd be German, I wouldn't appreciate my nose being rubbed in it.

We should never forget, but I do not agree with the collective guilt of current nowaday people.

Nope. Not saying anything in front of this huge van driving towards you…and your deers eyes are all that was needed as an answer.

whom EVER can ask this question. But if an answer is really needed:

No, there is absolutely nothing Germany can do to wipe the history clean because they lost. If they conquered the world, like everyone else, they will be able to re-edit all the history books and 30years later people might have forgotten.

There. That might have been interesting to get her views in this.

🫣

Your description states that she said ‘shouldn’t Germans be able to move on from the guilt’. That is perfectly reasonable.

I think what needs to be remembered (as has been said previously) is that it was the Nazis that perpetrated the Holocaust and not the German people. That’s why the Far Right should never be allowed to have power again. Unfortunately though, populism is on the rise.

This

Theirs is a genocide happening right now, children being burned alive in tents by European and American weapons. Never again is now and we’re doing nothing to stop it because it’s happening to brown people apparently and they ‘deserve it’ for the actions of a terrorist group.

One of our children lives in the west of Germany with their German partner. Given that they were both born in the 1990s the Shoah was more than half a century away then, and the same is true to the vast majority of Germans, so they have moved on, I would say.

But they tell me that the former East German part of Germany is much less educated in that way, as the rise of the 'AFD' shows (they are openly pro-Nazi and many members are anti-Semitic). If they ever get into power there is a very good chance we will see a repeat of the 1930s.

I think there was definately a misunderstanding on your part here.

If someone said that to me I would assume that they were talking about moving on from the guilt that modern Germans seem to be expected to feel. It wouldn't cross my mind that they were saying we should forget about the holocaust.

We all should remember our past and make changes, otherwise we'd still be beating children, persecuting gay people and allowing men to rape their wives.
Being randomly born somewhere isn't an achievement to be proud of or failure to be ashamed of though.

This attitude on Germany is starting to gain ground precisely because the fat right is becoming more powerful there, and they don't want people to remember where far right hatred leads. It's more important than ever to remember.

I lived in Germany for a few years. We lived on a road where the railway line bringing the people in to Bergen-Belson. Was very eerie and never used but not removed when they built the houses.

Not sure if it's all of Germany, but my German friend says the holocaust isn't taught.....like it never happened. The area we lived in was very much in denial at what happened in the local camp. Very odd.

And I always thought Jurgen the German was a pisstake!

when people cut and paste these lists of multiple things a nationality has done wrong, including to their own people, they rarely ever acknowledge their own nationality may have behaved badly in the past too, including to their own people

Why do you think they need to?

I've never said no one can talk about the slave trade though? I've said when people cut and paste these lists of multiple things a nationality has done wrong, including to their own people, they rarely ever acknowledge their own nationality may have behaved badly in the past too, including to their own people. You've done that though, so thank you. It's a rarity indeed.
People often keep their own nationality hidden too, to further avoid what their own nationality may have carried out.

I don’t agree with this at all.

There’s no global ledger of who did what to whom, with a final reckoning of who should feel the greatest guilt and should hang their head the lowest.

This isn’t about name-calling, playground tactics of who’s the biggest bully or who’s the greatest victim.

Anyone who knows anything about these things understands that at their root this is about identity, generational (centuries) of culture shaped by trauma, economic legacies that persist for hundreds of years.

It’s not undocumented and unknown that various west African tribal leaders sold their people into the slave trade. Th eir own people, from the sale of whom they profited. Does this mean nobody can talk about the trade in human slaves unless and until we “acknowledge” those wrongs too?

What is the moral or ethical basis of your position? It seems to be “it’s not fair tho”. There are some instances where really, fair or not, the complainant really has no standing.

What nationality are you and are you able to acknowledge anything at all your own nationality has ever done wrong? Even to your own people?
As I've stated, I don't believe anyone should feel pride or shame for where they randomly happened to be born. I just think that when people spend their time cutting and pasting other countries' sins, (including to their own people) they need to be able to acknowledge their own nationality might not always have been a model of perfection. Any examples at all?