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Anyone good at maths who can help me please?

40 replies

pensionsums · 19/12/2024 10:19

Hi everyone. I'm hoping that someone who is good at maths can help me here please. I have just turned 55, and can now take my private pension should I wish. I no longer work at the company it's with (I am now self employed).

I've seen all the figures, and as you would expect, the later you take it, the larger the sums become. But I've been using a compound interest calculator, and it looks to me, like I can get the best return on the money, if I take the lump sum now and invest it, and add the monthly payments to the same account. But I'm not the best at maths and would love some second opinions please!

The figures are as follows :

Pension pot = £308,646

Age 55 : I can take £67,866 lump sum & £848 pm

Age 60 : I can take £95,089 lump sum & £1037 pm

Age 65 : I can take £119,547 lump sum & £1371 pm (after tax)

I realise that once the pot is empty, that my monthly payments will stop. By my calculations, that would make me between 75 & 78 years old.

Running these figures through a compound interest calculator, it seems to me, that I am better off taking it now and investing, because if I opened an account now and invested £67,866, and added £848 to it every month, then by the time the pot runs out, I would have £472,516.

Whereas, if I waited until 65, and invested the lump sum of £119,547 and then added £1371 to that account monthly, then by the time the pension pot runs out, I would have £353,375 in the account.

I have used 3% as the interest rate, which seems quite conservative.

I realise that this is perhaps simplistic.

Can anyone tell me if I am talking sense, or point out anything I am not getting?

Thank you!!

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
pensionsums · 05/02/2025 20:33

No I don’t need the cash right now. I’m trying to extract the most from it that’s all.

OP posts:
Pleasealexa · 05/02/2025 19:45

You should also understand if the dB pension has guaranteed inflation increases, this could protect the income as opposed to you investing and hoping to get a return.

Another factor, do you need the cash to use for holidays, pay off mortgage, gift to children?

NotDavidTennant · 05/02/2025 19:35

What you're proposing is not tax efficient. Your monthly payments will be treated as income and taxed. If you put the payments in savings or an investment fund than that will also be taxed.

The idea behind defined-benefit schemes is that you retire and then live off it. That's why the pot never runs out as it's guaranteed income for life.

If you take it when you retire then you don't have any other income so most or all of the pension falls in your tax free allowance.

Rictasmorticia · 05/02/2025 19:06

I think your 3% return is over generous. Currently the highest rate is 3.8% in the highest paying account. The calculations for inflation significantly reduces this. Interest rates are on a high at the moment but are likely to fluctuate greatly over the next decades.

pensionsums · 05/02/2025 18:15

It’s a defined benefit pension

OP posts:
GalacticTowelMaster · 05/02/2025 18:14

Is this a dB (defined benefit) pension or dc (defined contribution) ? I suggest you listen to the meaningful money podcast he's got really clear explanations on pensions and investing. He gives out loads of information and says mist people can manage their own money, but he says if anyone should take advice, at retirement (or when planning retirement) is the best time. A good financial planner could really help

pensionsums · 05/02/2025 18:03

JaninaDuszejko · 05/02/2025 17:12

Check you can still pay into a pension while withdrawing from another.
Have you factored in that your pension pot will increase in value over the next 10 years and so the 25% tax free amount will also be bigger than currently predicted. So e.g. if you apply the 3% annual growth to your total pension pot how big will it be in 10 years?

I’m being thick here, but how can I work out how 3% inflation on the pension changes the projected figures?

It’s saying £122k lump sum in 10 years time. Do I add on ten lots of 3% and assume that in ten years that’ll be the new figure? Argh!

OP posts:
Harassedevictee · 05/02/2025 18:00

JaninaDuszejko · 05/02/2025 17:12

Check you can still pay into a pension while withdrawing from another.
Have you factored in that your pension pot will increase in value over the next 10 years and so the 25% tax free amount will also be bigger than currently predicted. So e.g. if you apply the 3% annual growth to your total pension pot how big will it be in 10 years?

If it’s a DB pensions tend there is no pot.

Harassedevictee · 05/02/2025 17:59

@pensionsums I think you have two threads running.

If you are still working you will pay tax on your monthly pension. It maybe 20% or 40%, that reduces the net pension to save.

I agree you need to do a spreadsheet with all the variables.

pensionsums · 05/02/2025 17:57

Ah, two good posts with very good points - no I haven't done that. Back to the drawing board!

OP posts:
JaninaDuszejko · 05/02/2025 17:12

Check you can still pay into a pension while withdrawing from another.
Have you factored in that your pension pot will increase in value over the next 10 years and so the 25% tax free amount will also be bigger than currently predicted. So e.g. if you apply the 3% annual growth to your total pension pot how big will it be in 10 years?

TeenToTwenties · 05/02/2025 17:03

pensionsums · 05/02/2025 17:00

How do you mean?

One which shows on basic figures when the crossover point is between earlier but smaller payments and later but larger ones.

pensionsums · 05/02/2025 17:00

TeenToTwenties · 05/02/2025 16:58

Are you competent with spreadsheets?
If so then make one and look at info graphically.

How do you mean?

OP posts:
TeenToTwenties · 05/02/2025 16:58

Are you competent with spreadsheets?
If so then make one and look at info graphically.

pensionsums · 05/02/2025 16:55

Hi again. Okay, so I found out that my pension is a Defined Benefit Pension. So PP are correct, it doesn't run out.

If I compare the sums :

A) Age 55 - take £70k and £880pm - invest the lump sum and the monthly payments for 10 years and don't touch.

Using a compound interest calculator, and an interest rate of 3%, at the end of 10 years, there would be £217,427 in the account.

B) Whereas, if I waited until age 65 to take anything, the projection is £122k lump sum.

Can anyone give me a good reason not to proceed with Plan A?

OP posts:
Superscientist · 19/12/2024 17:38

Some other scenarios to mull over

Just because you are entitled to take at 25% doesn't mean you have to and doesn't mean you have to in one lump sum.
My parents are taking their 25% out over a couple of years so they can move it straight into ISAs maxing out their entitlement each year.
One option they have looked is only withdrawing the interest the pension pot is making to live off. For their outgoings this should be sufficient and means they still have the pot should their needs change and their outgoings increase - for example one of them needs care.

Be careful with retiring at 55 it can impact your state pension. My mum retired and had to buy years to get close to a full state pension. She had some contributions as part of carers allowance. Check the calculator online and whether your state pension is predicted based on continued employment between 55 and 67 or whenever it can be drawn or not

InveterateWineDrinker · 19/12/2024 11:25

You might be able to take a lump sum tax free but any income you then earn from it will be taxed at your marginal rate - presumably 40% if you continue working. The monthly payments would also be taxable.

You'd be better off leaving it invested inside the pension wrapper if you can live off your self-employment income and are going to continue working.

Schoolchoicesucks · 19/12/2024 11:17

Wait and talk to your financial advisor. I think you are misunderstanding the monthly figures. These will either be based on you buying an annuity or taking a drawdown and not planned on "running out". Your 3% assumption is not taking inflation into account.

KneesUnder · 19/12/2024 11:16

Nogaxeh · 19/12/2024 10:38

The money in your pension pot isn't simply sitting as cash. It will also accrue interest. There's no particular reason to assume that investing the money outside the pension pot will generate a higher return than the money being invested inside the pension pot, but that's the only way you can get the result you've shared.

Often the illustrative scenarios on these things are presented in inflation-adjusted pounds, so I think the key thing you've done is to neglect the likely rate of inflation when calculating how much money you would have after investing your pension payouts.

This means you're comparing inflation-adjusted figures with nominal figures and the nominal figures will naturally look higher.

If you run your calculations again, with a 1% return after inflation, then you likely will see a different outcome.

This. There’s no reason to think your money will grow more outside the pension than inside it (if it looks like it will, that’s because you’re using a calculator with different assumptions or that doesn't take account of inflation) and by taking money out before you need it you reduce what you can take tax free.

Wakeywake · 19/12/2024 11:12

Apart from everything else that's already been said, keep in mind that the lump sum is tax free but the monthly amount is taxable. So you won't save the whole £800-odd. If you retire later, the tax free amount will be larger and you may pay less in tax if you wind down your self-employed work. You will also pay tax on your investment returns if not in an Isa. You really need someone to do the numbers properly.

AudiobookListener · 19/12/2024 11:02

Things you also need to think about are;

Will your monthly pension rise with inflation? Do you have any debts (because it might be better to pay them off, but not necessarily).

Your OP suggests you have a defined contribution private pension, not a public sector one. I assume this because you say your pension will stop at some point. So you need to know about the pros and cons of buying an annuity or not.

Taking cash and investing it yourself is only a good idea if you think you can make a better return than your pension scheme or annuity provider. It can be a burden managing large investments.

So tasks for you are: get clear what type of pension it is and what ALL your options are. Think about debts. Speak to a financial advisor. And don't be naive when dealing with a financial advisor.

pensionsums · 19/12/2024 10:59

Thanks all. To answer some questions.....

I have consulted with a financial advisor. She is away to look at everything and then we will meet again. This is just me thinking in the meantime.

I am still working, and will most likely do this job until I'm 70 (it's very easy and I can take the winters off, if I want to). Income from this job is circa £3k per month, which is why I wouldn't need to touch the monthly amount that came from the pension.

I am married. DH will be retiring in 3 years, and will get about £900pm from his pension. Very stressful job, so he is adamant he's getting out at 55.

Obviously once we are 67, we will get £1700pm from our 2 state pensions.

OP posts:
Superscientist · 19/12/2024 10:56

How is the pension currently invested? How do those returns compare to investing outside of the pension?
If you are investing out of a pension will you be liable for tax?
What annuity could you buy with your pot?
Is an annuity right for you?
What income do you need to maintain your lifestyle?
When and what state pension will you get and how will that impact what you need to take from your pension?
What are the tax implications of the monthly payments from your pension?
How is your health, are there any factors that would indicate you won't live into your 80s & 90s?

These plus more would be questions I would be asking an financial advisor.

There's no one right answer. It a decision that needs talking through with someone that knows the ins and outs of your pension and situation.

parietal · 19/12/2024 10:49

The money in the pension pot will continue to grow (interest) as you are taking stuff out. So the pot will last longer than your calculations suggest.

echo the others who say you need to see a financial adviser

also, why would you be taking money out of your pension pot and then investing rather than spending it? what would you live on?

BuzzieLittleBee · 19/12/2024 10:47

Of course a pension pot can run out! If you take everything out of it, there's nothing left. If you buy an annuity then that's different, but as OP talks about running out, I assume she's not planning on doing that.

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