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AIBU?

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Our cousins took our inheritance and gave it to their mother, I feel I can't carry on acting as if nothing has happened

438 replies

NeshButUpNorth · 16/12/2024 11:17

My deceased mother had brothers and a sister. One deceased brother and the surviving sister (i.e. our aunt) had kids. We used to go on shared holidays twice a year with our aunt's kids, we've always got on well.

Our bachelor uncle died 2 years ago, with no will. When we were chatting a few months later, my aunt's eldest told me that they were going to try to "so what my uncle would have wanted". I assumed my cousin would contact me and my sister in the future to discuss this, since they would need us to sign off anything that would change the legally defined distribution (which is 1/6 each to me and my sister), since it would be a criminal offence to do otherwise, which my cousin must know, since their spouse is a director of a legal company.

A few months after my uncle died, my sister was diagnosed with incurable cancer, with months, possibly a year or two to live. She had to go on sick leave for the chemo and radiation treatment, etc. After 6 months, her sick pay dropped to 50%, and after a year was due to end. She asked me what was happening with our uncle's estate, this being around 18 months after he died, with the house sold 6 months previously. I had received no updates, so she sent a facebook message to our cousin who was dealing with the estate, asking for an update and she described her health/finance situation. To our surprise, our cousin told us that they had given all the money to my aunt, rather than the 1/3 share the law defined.

I was baffled why they'd do this without getting legal documents with our consent first. Before I had a chance to form any further opinion, my cousins blocked my sister on messenger and unfriended her on Facebook. I assume that they think that she has done something so awful that she should be shunned and disowned.

Since then, my sister has had no birthday cards from them or my aunt, and no Christmas cards so far, whereas they've carried on liking my family updates on facebook, and have sent me cheery Christmas cards which arrived a couple of days ago. My sister is dwelling on the idea that they've lied on the probate forms, pretending that our mother never existed.

I just feel queasy and sick about it, how can I carry on as normal with them, or visit them at Christmas, even though my sister has told me she doesn't want this to oblige me to distance myself.
I want to explain to them how upsetting this has been, I've lost lots of sleep over this over the past few months, but now Christmas is coming, I feel I should say something, surely if I don't it will look like tacit agreement that I agree with their actions.

I was thinking of writing to my cousin, telling them how unhappy and sad this makes me feel. I feel that they have been so unfair in acting as if my sister has done something wrong, whereas they did not tell us what they planned (hence us having to ask for an update), whereas they have in fact committed a criminal offence (which I might not highlight). I had been wishfully imagining that my aunt might be unaware of all this, but then when I woke up too early again today fretting about this, I realised that if she hasn't sent my sister a Christmas card, then she must know all about it.

Initially I had been thinking for months to send a letter explaining how I feel to my cousin. Then after realising that my aunt must know about this, I've been trying to write a letter to send to my aunt this morning, to send with a Christmas card, since she asked how we are in the card she sent to me.
Surely that's the best option. Then I felt ill writing it, then decided to ask for advice here.

I definitely can't just carry on as normal, and I don't think I can say nothing.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
RockOrAHardplace · 16/12/2024 16:28

NeshButUpNorth · 16/12/2024 15:58

the cousin administering the estate told my sister that all the cash had gone to my aunt, so I am assuming not much point asking them if they got anything

We are all in England

But did the cousins know they were entitled, it doesn't matter what the other cousin told you, what you want to know is did they explain to them why they weren't getting anything?... But I would get a copy of the Probate and Administration details to see if there is anything in there that might explain why they have dealt with it in the way they have. It may reveal something you may not be aware of that explains why you didn't get anything and why they blanked your sister when she inquired. I know its a long shot but where families are concerned, its worth checking.

DowntonFlabbie · 16/12/2024 16:23

NavyTurtle · 16/12/2024 12:09

Your estate is divided equally between the nearest equal relationship - so that will the the sister. Look it up - I was in law.

We can see why you are no longer in law.

WutheringTights · 16/12/2024 16:22

mugglewump · 16/12/2024 13:04

If someone dies intestate, the estate goes to the next of kin, which assumably was your aunt. This is what has happened, rather than your cousin arbitrarily choosing for the estate to go to his mother. Perhaps he felt that it was too much hassle to fight to change it to a different distribution, as well as feeling guilty that this is what the law decreed and he couldn't be bothered to try to contest it. If you want to contest it, you can either ask your aunt to bequeath part of that estate to you in her will, or ask her for a gift now (assuming she will live for more than 7 years, otherwise only £3k is allowed as a gift). The only other alternative is a costly battle through the courts where you will have to prove that it was your uncle wish for his estate to be divided equally between his nieces and nephews. I am not sure how easy this would be.

As for your aunt and cousin giving you the cold shoulder, this could be partly guilt or fear of confrontation. The whole inheritance thing is awful IMO, I think it would be much better if everyone's estate went to the state, so these kind of very common family disputes didn't happen anymore. If this sounds crazy, my mother died before my grandmother, and my aunt had her mother change her will to leave her fairly sizable estate to her only, rather than split my mothers half between my sisters and me. We had a choice, fight it, hate it or accept it. I chose to accept because I didn't want the stress of the fight and I didn't think it was fair on my deceased family members to create rancoeur with our relatives. However, I do wish that we were never put in this situation and I am secretly pleased that my aunt's farm will be subject to inherritance tax now!!!

There is some absolute nonsense on the law on this thread, but the first paragraph of this post stands out as utter gibberish. Fortunately the OP seems to have a good understanding of what's what, but I do wish people wouldn't confidently state the law when they have no idea what they're talking about.

BoogieBoogieWoogie · 16/12/2024 16:20

Menstrualcycledisplayteam · 16/12/2024 15:56

Christ, posts like this infuriate me. WHY ARE YOU ASKING FOR ADVICE HERE? GO AND SEE A SOLICITOR!!!!
I'm a solicitor and I have no idea how the probate rules work and/or what you're entitled to. So the multitudes of people on here will have even less clue. NOONE HERE CAN HELP YOU GET YOUR MONEY.

WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING. Calm down FFS.

Read her posts. The OP has seen a solicitor. She knows what the situation is.

She was asking about morally what she should do

Dollybantree · 16/12/2024 16:20

ARichtGoodDram · 16/12/2024 11:38

Your relationship with them is dead. They are people who care so little for your and your sister they have stolen from her at an awful time of her life.

They don’t care about you so why are you trying to protect them?

This in spades!

why on earth would you even contemplate visiting and Christmas etc and carrying on as normal after what they've done? They've deliberately stolen from you and your sister!

You sound far too nice OP.

WiddlinDiddlin · 16/12/2024 16:20

There is no relationship to be saved here, they have proved themselves to be theives and frauds.

Letter before action from your solicitor ... then sue the fuckers.

Marmiteontoastgirlie · 16/12/2024 16:20

NeshButUpNorth · 16/12/2024 13:35

Don't worry, I am teamed up with my sister, and i have no intention of resuming normal visits with the cousins/aunt

Okay good to hear and I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to be harsh I just wanted you to find your outrage. I think if you can do the solicitors letter as a first step then you might not have to go through the difficulties of pursuing it further as you might just be able to spook them into paying up. Even if your sister doesn’t feel she needs the money anymore, £30k could be a lovely sum to create some happy memories with each other. Or even to donate it to someone else in need and leave that legacy.

Another2Cats · 16/12/2024 16:18

GoldsolesLugs · 16/12/2024 15:15

Just out of interest, people are talking about suing on this thread. Does this mean that, if successful, the relatives would be punished for the criminal offence, or would it just get the OP compensation (i.e. her rightful share of the inheritance)?

Generally speaking, it's a civil matter (although it could be treated as theft if it was deliberate and not just a mistake).

But there was a case a couple of years ago where the executor ended up sentenced to three months in prison for contempt of court, later reduced to six weeks.

That was rather a different story.

Mrs Totton died in 2019 and left the bulk of her estate worth £550k to her two grandchildren and their uncle. Their uncle was the sole executor of the will.

The deceased's home was sold by the executor in 2020.

The uncle then would not give the grandchildren their share of the inheritance so the eldest issued a civil application in 2021 to the court for an order requiring him to produce the estate accounts, detailing what the assets were and what had happened to them.

He was given three weeks to do this. The court order had a penal notice on the front of it. What this means is that it warns a person that they may be held in contempt of court if they do not comply with the order.

The uncle failed to comply with the order. He did eventually comply with the order but he still failed to distribute the estate to the grandchildren. So, in 2022 he was sentenced to three months in prison. This was later reduced to six weeks.

So, yes, one example of an executor going to prison.

Totton & Anor v Totton [2022] EWHC 2304 (Ch)

A similar thing happened in 2020 in the following case:

Frejek v Frejek [2020] EWHC 1181 (Ch)
.

But perhaps the most relevant case was also in 2020 when the executor was initially sentenced to 6 months for contempt of court and then a further 3 years and 7 months for fraud.

Mrs Border died in 2015 leaving her estate to two friends. Her neighbour, David Loveday was the executor (but not a beneficiary). He ended up spending half of the money on himself.

Daily Mail story about this one:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4933316/Neighbour-charge-pensioner-s-faces-jail.html
.

Then there was the legal clerk at a firm of solicitors who acted as executor for a number of different clients. She stole over £300k from the clients' estates and was jailed for four years.

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/law/legal-clerk-jailed-after-stealing-300000-from-firm/5062588.article

Totton & Anor v Totton [2022] EWHC 2304 (Ch) (31 August 2022)

https://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2022/2304.html

GravyBoatWars · 16/12/2024 16:15

OP, there is no option to stay neutral here.

Several of your relatives have knowingly, illegally defrauded your terminally ill sister and yourself out of inheritance that was due to you. If you keep staying silent knowing that and continue to accept cards and Facebook messages as the “good” sister then you are enabling that.

Go to your sister and tell her outright “what they’ve done is horrid, and I’m so angry at how they treated you when you approached them about it. Unless you would rather we let it go I would like to ask the solicitor I consulted what can be done and then take action.”

NoBinturongsHereMate · 16/12/2024 16:14

Lavenderfarmcottage · 16/12/2024 15:18

Yes of course the laws are different between Australia and UK but our court systems have some similarities, because we were colonised by the UK.

I was explaining wha happened when my dear sister died without a will and how the system does not make it easy to forget or omit someone.

The point was not about half siblings. The point was about how you need birth certificates and death certificates and it is not easy to pretend relatives exist. Presuming this is the same in the UK then it was a dicey little game they’re playing.

Edited

Australian death certs are very different. English ones don't list children of the deceased.

ThatRareUmberJoker · 16/12/2024 16:12

NeshButUpNorth · 16/12/2024 15:57

tbh I've been influenced by my sister not choosing to take it further, but I am going to talk to her again about this, I think we have been too passive, and this upcoming abnormal Christmas has highlighted this.

You need to tell your sister you will take care of everything. You need to take it forward what can they do to you?

They ruined your relationship and put money first with their greed not you.

FancyFran · 16/12/2024 16:10

@GoldsolesLugs and I repeat for the fourth time I said take legal advice. I even directed the op to check her home insurance for legal cover. I did not give it even with a law degree. Read my posts and don't mis quote me.
I have never pretended to be a lawyer and if you know your onions that is a criminal offence!

Rosscameasdoody · 16/12/2024 16:04

Another2Cats · 16/12/2024 14:36

There were two brothers and two sisters. The OP's mother was one of the sisters. So the OP and her sister are entitled to one third between them. This is 1/6th each.

Yep. This poster seems to be counting the number of children the deceased siblings had. It’s irrelevant. Three full blood siblings of the deceased so the estate is divided up into a one third share for each sibling, and in the case of the two siblings who pre-deceased the brother, that one third share is divided between their respective children, regardless of how many children each sibling had,

GoldsolesLugs · 16/12/2024 16:03

@FancyFran "There have been a few solicitors on your thread so as long as you now cross reference you'll be OK." She's had professional legal advice. I know you're coming from a good place, but please don't advise her to take legal advice from randos on the internet.
Also, she hasn't asked for legal advice but moral/emotional advice!

GoldsolesLugs · 16/12/2024 15:59

BorgQueen · 16/12/2024 15:57

Unless the estate runs into millions, the chances of seeing a penny are slim to none.
Legal costs are usually astronomical in inheritance cases.
Presumably the Lawyer Spouse wasn’t the Administrator and /or didn’t give any ‘official’ legal advice?

Are you an expert on this - when you say "usually", have you experience of many cases? Apologies for the tone if you are, but there's so much dodgy advice on here.

NeshButUpNorth · 16/12/2024 15:58

RockOrAHardplace · 16/12/2024 15:41

So was the Uncle that died in England? And I'm assuming that the cousins who handled the estate were the inheriting Aunties kids and not those you refer to above?

If that is the case then I think you do need to ask them if they have received their inheritance or been updated on what was happening? They maybe able to tell you something that settles the way forward for you?

the cousin administering the estate told my sister that all the cash had gone to my aunt, so I am assuming not much point asking them if they got anything

We are all in England

OP posts:
FancyFran · 16/12/2024 15:58

Marvellous OP. They usually make you go through the helpline first. However it's worth getting proper legal advice.
I'm fuming for you. Google the SRA too just so you have it onside.
This is a seious matter because fraud means any solicitor loses the right to practice. (I've known a few dodgy ones!).
I've got a difficult family and every passing involves challenges. My training role was in wills, trusts and probate but I am very rusty. I wanted you to find cost effective advice. There have been a few solicitors on your thread so as long as you now cross reference you'll be OK.
If you cousins start a fight just say I'm not arguing with you but in came out of a legal conversation as my sister is ill and needs her money. If you give her yours bless you but don't tell these thieves that.

Takeachance18 · 16/12/2024 15:57

With ancestry.co.uk you can look up probate amount. Without a will you are right, it can't be done on how someone thinks, unless obviously everyone agrees e.g., they give a portion from their inheritance to a step child. It should be divided equally between all the siblings (and their children if already deceased).

The estate is shared equally between the brothers or sisters (not including any step-brothers, step-sisters, half-brothers or half-sisters).
If a brother or sister died before the deceased, their children (nieces and nephews of the deceased) will inherit in their place.
If any of these nieces or nephews died before the deceased, their children will inherit in their place and they are entitled to apply for probate.
If any brothers, sisters or their descendants died after the deceased, their share will become part of their own estate.

Applying for probate

Find out if you need to apply for probate to deal with the estate of someone who’s died. Discover how to apply for probate or letters of administration and what to do if there’s no will.

https://www.gov.uk/applying-for-probate/apply-for-probate

GoldsolesLugs · 16/12/2024 15:57

Can we stop with all the legal advice please? (I don't mean the answers to my question, that was interesting and I asked for it).
OP didn't ask for legal advice, and more importantly, has consulted a solicitor. She's got her answers and has come here more for ethical guidance.

BorgQueen · 16/12/2024 15:57

Unless the estate runs into millions, the chances of seeing a penny are slim to none.
Legal costs are usually astronomical in inheritance cases.
Presumably the Lawyer Spouse wasn’t the Administrator and /or didn’t give any ‘official’ legal advice?

NeshButUpNorth · 16/12/2024 15:57

twilightermummy · 16/12/2024 15:41

I wanted to vote YABU for this reason but I didn't want to confuse and delay the op any further!

It beggars belief how passive you've been. I really feel sorry for your sister here. If my extended family treated my sister like that they'd have a problem with me, regardless of her health.

tbh I've been influenced by my sister not choosing to take it further, but I am going to talk to her again about this, I think we have been too passive, and this upcoming abnormal Christmas has highlighted this.

OP posts:
Menstrualcycledisplayteam · 16/12/2024 15:56

Christ, posts like this infuriate me. WHY ARE YOU ASKING FOR ADVICE HERE? GO AND SEE A SOLICITOR!!!!
I'm a solicitor and I have no idea how the probate rules work and/or what you're entitled to. So the multitudes of people on here will have even less clue. NOONE HERE CAN HELP YOU GET YOUR MONEY.

NeshButUpNorth · 16/12/2024 15:55

Oncewornballgown · 16/12/2024 15:30

Unfortunately your cousins and aunt believe that keeping you sweet will permit them to get away with fraud. Their appalling behaviour towards your sister has shown what happens when they are questioned. They applied to administer the estate and then have not complied with the law. They have full awareness of their actions and are basically a bunch of crooks. I’m not sure how you could even consider sending a Christmas card!
You are within your rights to write to them and ask formally for the details of the distribution given the length of time that has passed. If you are lucky they may well capitulate when they realise that everything could get complicated for them. You can’t trust a word these people say so definitely get their response in writing and don’t accept less than this. They can’t now say that there wasn’t any money left as they have admitted giving it to their mother.
I too am wondering what has happened regarding the cousins from your other deceased uncle. Even if you decide not to pursue a legal case they deserve to be confronted with their actions and their fraud/theft brought into the light.

I was/am not sure whether my elderly aunt was complicit in this, but if she is not sending cards to my sister, it would imply she is, but she may have been misled by her kids, so I'm wary of assuming guilt

OP posts:
DuckbilledSplatterPuff · 16/12/2024 15:49

NeshButUpNorth · 16/12/2024 11:39

no, and it's fair enough to assume that, but the guidance on the forms explains it all, and the cousin's spouse runs a legal firm, so I doubt they are unaware

If the cousin's spouse runs a legal firm, they absolutely know what they did was wrong but you only get recompense if you take legal action, which you are well within your rights to do. They are banking on you being too nice to do that.

Yet as soon as your poor sister asked them a question, your cousin said the money has gone to the aunt and blocked her. You have no idea if that is true.
But the action shows that the cousin doesn't care what you think and hopes you will think that taking legal action is too much trouble/too disruptive.

They have already disrupted your life, to their own advantage. If they are offended by you taking it further and asking questions and cut you off - havent they already offended your sister and tried to cut you both off?

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