To think we mums are utterly exhausted as it does take a village

Belly laughing at Billy Big Balls - so true.

I think as previous posters have said there is also something to be said for birth spacing. There's a lot of evidence hunter gatherer societies would have a three to four year gap, mainly with extended breastfeeding supressing fertility(wouldn't be the same now due to modern nutrition). Now people start later and have less time. And there is a cultural norm for a two year gap which doesn't actually always suit everyone.

Also much younger grandparents who could also help out (no judgement I have had kids in my 30s although I am so so lucky with my parents and the support I've had from them). And smaller families with less maiden aunts around to help out. Unmarried sisters often played a huge part in raising kids in history as actually lots of women didn't marry.

Also children would play in large multi age groups so there wouldn't be this constant need to entertain them all the time.

In some ways a village is luck but also you can foster one in your community by helping out other people and asking for support.

there are always threads on mumsnet about how people were expected to raise their siblings growing up and now they have their own kids their parents won't even babysit, or how they were there for their friends when they were pregnant/had babies and have been abandoned by them now they're in the same situation.

truth is almost everyone is busy with something, and people will do what they want to do. people are either people who give or they aren't.

also I think a surprising number of recent grandparents are openly realising that they didn't actually like raising kids all that much and they don't want to get involved, and that teamed with the most disposable income any retired generation has ever had or will have has meant they can literally sail off into the sunset.

I think it Depends doesn't it?

You can't keep people at arms length when you have a baby and then expect them to fill in the gap when you decide they are acceptable to be there:

Also you have to be there for other people to be their village, because it's a give and take thing.. you can't expect people to be there for you if you weren't their for them..

I agree with the misogyny comments.

These sort of communities - pretty much everything falls on the women. They should not be glorified.

We saw it in the comment about having to take her newborn on the school run because there was not a community of “women” around. Where the hell was the dude who impregnated her? It’s his job to support, not the “women”.

I saw it with an old university boyfriend's family. Pit village, 1990s. His mother, 53, was running the home (still had two minor kids) and helping with her adult daughter’s toddler and dealing with her elderly mother and mother-in-law. No assistance from her husband who expected his meal on the table at 6pm. She also had a part-time job in a supermarket cafe because Billy Big Balls was on a crap wage.

😂 I know!

No regrets.

Gina Ford 😱😱😱😱
That is a swear word on MN
Baby cruelty - and devil incarnate

Yes I grew up in the eighties my mum didn't work until I was around 9. She did the house n kids and dad paid the bills. We also use to stay with my grandma for a week in the holidays and have days with my other grandma and grandad. The mums all helped each other out too, so if my mum wanted to go to town I'd go to a friends for a couple hours. The older kids would babysit the younger kids when the parents had nights out.

This is absolutely why I’m not exhausted. I used a mixture of Gina Ford and The Baby Whisperer and it means reliable naps and knowing they will sleep 7-7 unless they are poorly or teething.

Recently we realised we were putting the work in but we got no support in return. So we were always out visiting and people were holding our baby etc. But we then came home and still had to do everything ourselves anyway. Now we don't go visiting and no one visits us (never did). We are still doing it all but less stressed!

Yeah I don't have kids and I wonder if a lot of women do it because of biological drive, pressure/expectations or social media fantasy rather than researching some of the reality.

I honestly don't know how women with kids do it.

You can guarantee if men were responsible for 9-10 months of pregnancy, childbirth, and the following tasks unfortunately mainly still left to women for the following 18 years, that humans would have died out a long time ago.

This is exactly how I feel as a single parent. I don't have local family support and ex dp lives 3 hours away - funnily enough the weekends he visits our child are often the most exhausting working out logistics, hosting etc. The rest of the time we carry on fine with a good routine my friends who have partners seem more burnt out some have constant dialogue who is doing what pick ups, who is cooking what are they making, weekend and holiday plans etc

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but I think it's tough on the generation around in their 60's, as they cam be caring for elderly parents, with less siblings maybe than generations before them, not quite retired, then also grandparents, or great aunts, not surprised they don't have time or mental energy to support new mums and grandchildren.

I think also people working longer hours than they used to and having children older does make a difference. I could go days without sleep with a sick baby and be fine in my early 20s. These days, I really feel it.

I never had a village and didn't need or want one. My mother never had a village (her choice, circumstance for me).

Uk costs and expectations make parenting here exhausting. When my children were little , I lived abroad and made use of affordable domestic help, cheap nursery, cheap food from markets , generous maternity allowance, cheaper rent and so on.
Here it’s tough but the expectations are higher in every area except perhaps education. It’s no wonder it is exhausting with little ones.

This is my experience my older grandparents were more if a help to me than mum or mil. MiL used to come and stay for hours drinking tea having her tea then want running home and did nothing but talk to me . No help just a drain that I put up with but after divorce she said blood was thicker than water. But the blood didn't put the time in like I had to and doesn't see her at all now.

Not sure why everyone is hung up on this point about the village being reciprocal, and people now wanting to take not give. In the past I think it was village elders who would have done the lions share. essentially a network of “unofficial aunts” who probably had grown up kids and actually missed child rearing.

It wasn’t a network of parents with similar aged kids transactionally scratching each others backs.

I'm utterly exhausted and struggling with one, I would love a second but it can't happen as I don't see how I can do it and give both kids what they need. I feel such a failure but reassuring to hear others have similar struggles

Children on the whole are safer, more cared for and listened to than they ever were. There is less violence, less abuse, less fear. Parents today devote themselves to their families unlike the past.
I have noticed how self aware and emotionally intelligent older children are today. I think most parents are doing an outstanding job at a big cost to themselves.

I agree to a degree.

I think support makes all the difference and a day on MN tells you that most people seem to think expecting help is a crime 😂

But then again when woman (mainly) stayed at home and kept house they did a lot of things by hand or in person that nowadays take a smiggen of time.

I generally think raising children is exhausting - and nowadays people have a whole internet of insta families they feel they should keep up with.

And in this village there was a lot of mucky old people sat around smoking not really raising the kids just a body that people left them with and child abuse was rife.

I think a difference from my childhood to now is how much parents are expected to be hands on in every thing. I walked to school and back alone from age 5 for example that's just not allowed now. All these Christmas festivities in December my mum just had make sure the pillowcases got filled on Xmas eve. Never listened to us read (1970s) or helped in class.
I think there are way more expectations now on parents. I was a total helicopter parent(90s/00s) and I do as much as I can to support DD with hers so she can work.

I think there’s sometimes also little recognition from parents that everyone’s lives and busy and stressful, everyone has things going on, not just them. There often isn’t just a big group of people with nothing to do and plenty of energy and willingness to help raise someone else’s children.

Life needs to get easier for everyone in order for there to be more village availability.

This too. Childhood has changed so much in recent decades and not for the better.

I'm 52 and my childhood wasn't like that. Neighbours were vile to us because my.mum was a single parent ( husband left her for a work colleague social workers). They'd call her a prostitute and shout where's the father. But we weren't one of those large families with relatives on every corner. Her only sister moved to Australia.
Our experience with a hostile community definitely made us kids stick 2 fingers up to authority. If a neighbour had said anything to us as we got older we would have said fuck off back because of how horrible they were to our mum. But we lived 15 mins from grandparents and we stayed with them a lot.
I think they were jealous of my mum as she was quite posh compared to them. Could decorate a room (wallpaper) in a day do her own garden everything was home made she was a brilliant baker and she worked. Suffered from mental health problems from all the strain of horrible people.
I don't think the community was always very nice it was clichey. I've lived my life with a wall up to keep away from gossips and Spidey people.