To be annoyed at being told to be considerate of disabled people

I'd say thats rare.. if you've got the space for a separate disabled cubicle you've probably got the space to put a changing table somewhere else. I've seen many tiny cafes manage that..
In fact most of the places I've seen where they have put the changing table only in the disabled loo have been bars where they could have definitely made the women's toilets bigger ti accommodate a changing table but they have chosen not to because it's just cheaper to put them in the disabled cubicle which they had to build by law.
These places should be held to account really coz it's literally just about money.

You seem to assume here that disabled people aren't also parents? FWIW I agree it is stupid to have the only baby change in the disabled loo.....have already said that above.

No I don't 'surely see' that parents ever have to use a disabled loo 'out of necessity' to the extent that disabled people should be denied access to their facilities....I disagree with this entirely. Just for the record: I once posted in detail about what my DS personal care entailed, and MN put a trigger warning on the thread. So no I don't accept that a baby change ever trumps the needs of disabled adults, it is frankly laughable to suggest they do.

I have never seen a sign like that before, but I am assuming it is because some parents have left the place in a mess, left the changing table down, nappies on the floor etc. that has made it difficult for a disabled person to use the facility properly.

It is difficult when the baby change and disabled are in the same cubicles, but some places simply do not have the room to have separate cubicles for both.

we know, and i certainly have no problem with them being used for changing babies.. as i said, i am unlikely to BE that urgent that i can't let a mom go ahead of me (unless i've already had to traipse for ages to find a loo).

what we object to is people being 'offended' by the signs asking for consideration, by leaving it in a mess, by taking the piss and then using the toilet themselves, for their other 2/3 kids who ARE old enough to use the normal bathroom, for tying the cord up and not putting it back, using it for breastfeeding, as a changing room..etc

There have been enough examples on this thread of JUST that kind of behaviour. THAT is what needs to stop while our bathroom is also being used as a baby change.

Parenthood isn't always a conscious choice.. that's a bit of an illusion isn't it.
I'm not disagreeing with any of your other points but I do think you stand to hurt people if you act like parenthood is just a lifestyle some people decide to buy in the store or something..
It's a biological reality. It's a fact of life. And children grown to be adults.. they are part of the general population. You make it sound a bit like these are pets we are talking about.
I don't think it's a hood idea to defend the rights of one group by acting like another group is less important.. that's going to get people's backs massively up. And it's not thar I think 'disabled people should be more polite' about talking about their rights.. it's just that I do think it's important to have compassion.
Obviously disabled toilets should be used by people with disabilities who need them... but it is not the fault or responsibility of parents trying to meet the needs of their children, that some businesses try abd save space and money by lobbing the only changing unit in to the disabled cubicle. This is something both groups should be taking up with these business not each other.
Children do not have a choice regarding being born and they also have a right to access public spaces and be out and about without having to sit in their own excrement because the only place to change them is in a toilet they aren't supposed to be in.
But you know I don't think whether someone chose or did not choose to have whatever need they have is relevant at all to any of this.
Businesses should take more care and we should all be campaigning that changing facilities aren't just exclusively lobbed in the disabled loo

which are supposed to be dedicated to them.

If that’s the only place the baby change is they’re not dedicated, are they? You might think they ought to be, and you might be right and justified in saying that but in the absence of dedicated changing facilities surely you can see parents use them out of necessity and not choice.

@WinterBones you and I have something in common then as as I’ve said upthread I’ve used disabled facilities in a caring capacity aswell as a parent.

Well that's very kind of you but there are too many people who in practice do not give precedence to disabled people needing to use the facilities which are supposed to be dedicated to them. They don't ask for priority; they just take it. I don't want to just rely on people's goodwill when in so many cases it is not there.

You think we should be grateful that the non-disabled gracefully allow us to access disabled facilities that they muscled in on in the first place? If there are to be any concessions made they should all be the other way round; ie if a parent wants to use the disabled loo then they can be allowed as an exception.

@sirzy - here are a few quotes of mine.

“That is a totally fair POV re prioritising needs.

I can hand on heart say I’ve never queued for a disabled toilet. I’ve only ever nipped into one if it’s free and available for use

Nobody is saying they should take precedence. That is an entirely different matter.

I would never see a disabled person struggle in place of my own need

they are not asking for priority,”

Ive said if explicitly on multiple occasions. Perhaps you are the one who ought to read back.

I wish I had a group of fellow disabled friends you’re lucky! I’m isolated

i'm lucky that i have a good group of disabled friends, and we're ALL sick of it, i do a lot of disabled advocacy within my social group.. help arrange conventions and stuff and sometimes have to get blunt with the others over venue choices.. a lot of abled people just DON'T get it.

I dislike being blunt/crude, but its so often that people who haven't been where we are just don't have to think like us. I'm the first in my family to have needed wheelchairs/crutches and things, and the stuff i experience day to day surprises them. One of my best friends recently has also ended up needing mobility aids and i have been by her side through her medical journey and been blunt with her doctors on her behalf (and her husband tbh) and even she cried and apologised because even though she spent a lot of time with me, she didn't get it either until she found herself there.

i dont see it as degrading to have to be blunt, sometimes nicely nicely doesn't work, and a lump hammer is needed to hammer a point home.

God, it's always a race to the bottom, isn't it?

You may need to read your comments back because they have very much suggested otherwise!

It’s sad and degrading that we have to resort to being blunt and telling it like it is in such terms to try to get people to understand. You’re braver than me !!

👏🏻 totally agree. I’ve said multiple times on this thread that changing a child should not take precedence. Not arguing at all and have not once made a comment to suggest otherwise. I’ve just acknowledged they do need to be changed and should not be expected to leave a venue and find alternative means as has been suggested.

Nope. Me neither. Parents aren’t asking for priority.

Nowhere on this thread has anyone suggesting changing a baby takes precedence over a disabled person.

You go first, I’ll use it when you’ve finished if there’s nowhere else suitable.

I've worked with disabled adults for many years and had to use disabled toilets to change them. But I can still see that babies have the right/need to be changed too. A mum alone with a pram and young baby plus toddler may not be able to fit in a standard cubicle. If the establishment is putting baby changing facilities in the accessible toilet then the mum/baby has the right to use them. Mum's shouldn't have to go outside to change their babies or be expected to change them at a restaurant table or leave their baby in a soiled nappy. Sometimes we have to share and queue. There are lots of different reasons why someone may need to use the accessible toilet. If someone in any toilet queue was desperate I would let them go first, young children included.

ok, lts put it bluntly for you.

1 toilet with wheelchair adaptations and a baby change.

if its the choice between me, as an adult, pissing myself in public, and then having to try and get home in piss soaked clothes, and clean a piss soaked wheelchair, and your baby having to spend 5 more minutes in a pissy nappy, then yes, my need trumps theirs.

Don't like it, fucking tough shit.

The only businesses who appear to care about disabled people these days are the ones offering disability products at vastly inflated prices.

They used to be regulated and you had to provide proof of disability to get one. Everything has it’s price.

It’s not unfortunate, it’s deliberate, and it’s inappropriate. I wouldn’t expect a mum to leave her baby or toddler unattended. But I also wouldn’t expect changing a baby to take priority over a disabled adult about to have a public accident because they can’t access the one and only toilet they are able to use.

It's pointless when you can buy the darn keys on eBay. Someone offered me a 'spare' one the other day having bought a pack of them.

Show me where anyone has suggested anywhere on this thread that children and babies don’t have a right to hygiene. But I’m sorry, there is no comparison between the needs of a baby, and the needs of a full grown disabled adult with continence problems - many of whom have those problems on top of profound disability. You really have little idea of the issues involved, and are reaching for ridiculous arguments to make non existent points. If you can’t see that it’s ridiculous to make disabled toilets accessible to those without disabilities and thereby potentially subject profoundly disabled people to the indignity of soiling themselves in public because they can’t access the one and only facility they are able to use, then I really can’t help you.

This thread is making me increasingly unhappy. The ablism is all over it for us to see, and the perpetrators will persist in denying it. No wonder my DS life is made so hard.

Somebody actually argued upthread that businesses don't care about the disabled because there aren't enough of them and they don't pull in enough money. Yes they actually feel comfortable stating that openly.

Not one person on here has suggested that children don't have rights to hygiene and care. But my DS was a baby once and I can assure you that there is absolutely no comparison between changing a baby's nappy and the personal needs of a disabled adult, the latter is infinitely harder and by an order of magnitude.

I don't want to, and don't see why I should have to, explain on here the difficulties of caring for an adult who may be incontinent or have other challenges that make it essential to have access to a toilet when they need one, and the potential loss of dignity when they can't. Pitting the needs of babies & their parents against those of disabled people; suggesting they are on a par with each other; trying to claim that having children isn't a 'choice' in the same way that disability isn't a choice; says it all.

You really have no understanding of the issues at stake here and I don't see why I should have to spend my time trying to get oblivious people like you to understand.