To be annoyed at being told to be considerate of disabled people

Well exactly
The thread has morphed into something else
As they often do

I have plenty of first hand experiences of disability, although accessing toilets has never been the most challenging part of that. When caring for an autistic teenager with the mind of a toddler who is volatile and challenging without notice, frankly finding a toilet has been the absolute least of my concerns because I have not ever found that they were not available - and yes said teenager has legitimate radar key, together with blue badge.

Why does everyone need to fight to be accommodated? It would be a short campaign, wouldn’t it?

”we want changing facilities”
“but you have them”
”yes but the thread on MN told us we must not use them”
🙄 I can’t see it taking off.

I meant, which I think you realise, that I have never been in a situation where someone has had to give way to me or been behind me in a queue for disabled facilities. I have simply never used facilities where there was a queue. Ever. So I can’t possibly have inconvenienced someone who wasn’t there.

There is actually no law to say whether able bodied, or any other group can or cannot use ‘accessible’ toilets. ‘Accessible’ is a concession. Only the right of disabled people to equal access to suitable toilet facilities is enshrined in law. Before the Equality Act 2010, stand alone toilet rooms were exclusively for the use of disabled people and their carers and most were kept locked, requiring a Radar key. The drafting of the Equality Act seems to have overridden this and now only recognises that disabled people have ‘priority’ in stand alone lockable toilet rooms, which are designed for disabled people and their carers, and allow wheelchair access - however it would seem contradictory to the Act to site baby changing facilities exclusively in these areas.

What it comes down to is the removal of the word ‘disabled’, which has been replaced with ‘accessible’. To my mind this waters down existing disability legislation to the point where it’s meaningless - as evidenced by the opinions of some on this thread.

'This thread does not reflect well on disabled people.'

Just when I think I've heard it all. Of course, disabled people are supposed to 'be kind' and be pathetically grateful for the concessionary crumbs thrown their way. And yet here they are on this thread getting uppity.

I'n the real world, I have never encountered a situation where there’s been a life or death battle between me and the wheelchair (or disabled) user ....It’s never as heated as this thread suggests but maybe I hang out in the wrong places.'

And this. Well you wouldn't encounter that would you? Is it hard to understand that a disabled person - who may have any number of hidden conditions and thus feel vulnerable - may not feel able to stand up for their rights or feel equal to having a heated discussion? You know, empathy.

This thread has been very revealing - in a bad way - about how a large number of people feel about the disabled. They may consider themselves, and even be, decent people who have generally benign feelings towards disabled people; unless and until they are faced with situations which cause inconvenience to themselves. It doesn't take much for some people to default to 'me me me'.

It is not just about the toilet being kept clean.....it is about the uselessness and pointlessness of the notice with its appeal for users to be considerate (and it is evidently not the disabled who are guilty of being inconsiderate).

It has become about the utter cluelessness of certain individuals and their lack of awareness of disabled people's needs. That started with the original poster's thread title expressing annoyance at the need to be considerate of disabled people, so you can't blame posters for it taking that turn.

Also, the futility of putting up notices requesting people to be considerate. Those who are considerate will always be so, and for those who aren't, a notice won't cause them to suddenly see the light. And as always it will be the most vulnerable group (ie the disabled) who will pay the highest price for others' selfishness.

This is very patronising but also indicates to me that you have no knowledge of disability.

I do not want parents to have nowhere to change their baby.

But I resent disabled (hard fought through campaigning) spaces becoming defacto "accessible" spaces.

Parents or people interested in the subject should fight for similar spaces which are "parent toilets".

Although the thread isn’t about access and who has the right of use it’s about a sign asking for the facility to be kept clean.

which of course it should.

But earlier in the thread you were also saying you 'don’t feel you should have to justify' using the disabled loo as a strategy for keeping your children safe. Your posts in that part of the thread kind of undermine your statement that you accept it's not on a par

Except I’ve accepted on more than one occasion that it is not on a par. 🧐

I think it’s a reflection of the current laws tbh
Which @WinterBird24 is aware of.

Completely disagree. Multiple people on this thread have tried to explain the difficulties that can occur when non-disabled people try to commandeer disabled toilets. You seem mostly unwilling to take on board anything that is being said and still seem wedded to the idea that your right as a parent to use these loos is on a par with that of a disabled person. Personally I think it's you that this thread doesn't reflect well on.

Agree
When I was working on a large shopping centre I was heavily pregnant with twins.
We got the provision in in terms of numbers for women but they wouldn’t make the individual cubicles larger
On a snagging visit I demonstrated how a pregnant women could get into the toilets by standing on the WC ( I needed help ) and only then being able to close the door. I wasn’t able turn around though.
They didn’t enlarge any cubicles because
” then you use the disabled toilets if you’re too large “ ….. their minuted response. All men with kids btw.

End users need to be involved in the design of facilities, simple as that.

Best baby change I ever saw was in Debenhams Cardiff. Separate to the accessible/disabled toilet, had full sized and child sized toilets, sink, proper unit for changing the baby rather than fold down (DS hated the fold down ones, would scream the place down), loads of space, more than enough for a double buggy. It was brilliant.

Worst, outside of not having any, was a fold down baby change in a rather small cubicle. Couldn't get alongside it so with DS hating the things anyway it was useless for us. Floor was really wet so couldn't change him in the floor either.

Nothing to do with baby changes, but one memorable public toilet had cubicles so narrow that with the toilet roll holder narrowing it further it was difficult for me, size 12 at the time, to turn round in the cubicle. Older facility so originally it wouldn't have had the massive toilet roll holder, but did nobody consider the impact on users of adding them? Larger women, heavily pregnant women, would find it impossible to use, couldn't have taken a toddler in with me, anyone on crutches would have found it extremely awkward or impossible. Just having a large bag would have caused problems.

Agree with your last para
Apart from once at centre parks ( changing facilities, not toilets ) I’ve never encountered queues for accessible toilets either and a survey was carried out recently on use in high public use areas with the same findings.
I was involved in this and there was only one problem place, a Sainsburies in a large town. The problem however was due to temporary closure of both the mens and ladies toilets because of flooding.

I suppose in the same way as disabled - they struggled. Hence having to legislate to allow women to breastfeed in public.

When I was younger if you went shopping with your parents you didn’t spend all day doing it. Coffee shops were rare and generally people didn’t stay all day shopping and eating out. Having a coffee was a real luxury.
Certainly by the 80s though there were facilities. ( probably before I have no recollection, I’m not old enough )
There were more public toilets too. Many of these have now been closed down due to
vandalism
cost of upkeep
abuse by drug users and people having sex in them

Absolutely agree
As a late 50s female architect that has been campaigning for better facilities for the best part of my career I can say I have definitely lost the fight

I can’t even get developers ( men ) to offset the WC in a womens cubicle so the sanitary bin can fit in.
Let alone provide enough facilities in terms of numbers, hence the queues….still.

Facilities are moving on in terms of building regs and larger public buildings now have to accommodate different types of disabled facilities with some now requiring facilities to change adults. We are however a long way off from providing enough or for everyone
If a developer ‘says’ they can’t afford it or don’t have the space they can more often than not get away with under providing.
Much the same as S106s on new housing or Angela Raynor now deciding for herself what’s acceptable, that has just reduced our voice.

How (genuinely) did parents manage before accessible toilets existed?

as I’m sure you know ( I’ve read your posts) you don’t have to take the baby out of their pram as Bregs and Bstandards allow for larger spaces such as all accessible toilets ( which includes disabled wcs with the wheelchair sign ) for your use as well.
It’s Equality and being inclusive. As I’ve mentioned before even people with luggage have a justifiable reason.
It’s all about numbers and use
Currently the standards are woefully lacking in terms of provision for all of these groups
Perhaps we all need to write to our MPs

Perhaps people or/ and Disabled rights UK et all could lobby for disabled toilets, which are actually accessible facilities, to just be for their sole purpose in law.
Perhaps that would solve the issue
Currently they are not.
Currently they are large enough and have adaptations to suit a disabled persons needs and the needs of anyone that needs a larger space or immediate access etc.

Of note Bregs does not allow baby changing in a disabled / accessible WC in larger premises any more. This is for newly built or converted properties. I’m not currently aware of any changes in requirements to smaller establishments, which I’m guessing OPs KFC probably might be.

You put this better than I did in my post.

I wore my children in a sling a lot too - but then that would have negated the need for a pushchair. So it’s not likely, if you also have a pushchair, that you have a sling readily available too.