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School removed GCSE for yr 11 student?

191 replies

LolaLouise · 13/12/2024 09:03

Posting here for traffic as i really need advice.

My daughter is in year 11, she is very strong in maths and science so picked the triple award science in her year 9 options as this would give her 3 strong GCSE grades. Today she has gone into school and we have been informed the school have withdrawn triple science as an option, and all year 11 students will be entered in to the double award instead. This means my daughter is now doing 1 less subject at GCSE than her peers, and now potentially cant get on to the college course she wanted as she was counting on the 3 sciences for the 5 grades 5+ she needs to be accepted.

Is there anything we can do? where do we stand? How can a school take away a GCSE from students 6 months before they finish?

OP posts:
Moglet4 · 14/12/2024 13:00

GrammarTeacher · 14/12/2024 09:07

I have never known this to happen in a state grammar school as all sciences have to be covered in NC.
If they drop from 3 to 2 that would be separate to dual award.

My daughter’s private school allows them to do 1, 2 or 3 sciences - they’re no dual award offered and the number they do is their choice. I’ve also never known this in the schools I’ve taught in (but then I’m not a science teacher) but I confess I’m delighted - she’ll only be taking one and doing more Arts based subjects instead.

GrammarTeacher · 14/12/2024 12:55

I'm a year 12 form tutor this year. The jump from GCSE to A Level is larger for people who've done dual award.

wombat15 · 14/12/2024 12:55

GrammarTeacher · 14/12/2024 12:50

You can't drop one of the sciences. It's a core subjects. You have to do all three in some form.
It was unheard at my school in the 90s to drop one. And it's not been common in either of the grammars I've worked in.
Occasionally, Greek/Latin has been dropped and very rarely (for pastoral rather than academic reasons) the modern foreign language has been dropped.
In grammars it's more common to do additional ones 'for fun'. In our school Astronomy and Spanish are done this way.

I was at school in the 80s and definitely not unheard of to drop an O level in any subject. Few people did three sciences anyway and the dual award rare. The schools my DC went to seemed to encourage some students to drop a subject if they thought they wouldn't get a good mark too. Probably to keep their results looking good.

wombat15 · 14/12/2024 12:50

MumDoingMyBest · 14/12/2024 11:48

This sounds like either poor communication or poor teaching (or both!) from the grammar school.
By which I mean that the grammar school is probably not covering from an appropriate starting point in the A level classes the content that is only included in the triple sciences. Which might be reasonable to do if they let students moving to the school know that is what they were going to do and the topics they needed to do some prep work for.

It doesn't seem like irrefutable proof that triple science students do better than double science students.

If they have to do extra work for A level compared with those who did triple science, it is evidence that it is not as easy for them to do A level sciences following the dual award. That might not be "proof" but surely it is common sense that it is harder they are likely to do less well. Why else do many grammar school only offer triple science?

GrammarTeacher · 14/12/2024 12:50

wombat15 · 14/12/2024 12:42

It wasn't rare at DCs grammar school. Admittedly, I do only know students who dropped a language though . I was assuming they could drop other subjects too as happened when I was at school but if that has changed, maybe not. Therefore they all do three sciences.

You can't drop one of the sciences. It's a core subjects. You have to do all three in some form.
It was unheard at my school in the 90s to drop one. And it's not been common in either of the grammars I've worked in.
Occasionally, Greek/Latin has been dropped and very rarely (for pastoral rather than academic reasons) the modern foreign language has been dropped.
In grammars it's more common to do additional ones 'for fun'. In our school Astronomy and Spanish are done this way.

wombat15 · 14/12/2024 12:42

GrammarTeacher · 14/12/2024 12:39

That's what I thought you said. Students don't get to drop one of the sciences in a state school.
Dropping a GCSE is very very rare in my school and is usually a language if so.

It wasn't rare at DCs grammar school. Admittedly, I do only know students who dropped a language though . I was assuming they could drop other subjects too as happened when I was at school but if that has changed, maybe not. Therefore they all do three sciences.

GrammarTeacher · 14/12/2024 12:39

wombat15 · 14/12/2024 12:36

I meant that they do not offer the dual award. Therefore if one or two people want to drop a GCSE they would have to do two single sciences. Do students never drop a subject at your school during year 10 or 11?

That's what I thought you said. Students don't get to drop one of the sciences in a state school.
Dropping a GCSE is very very rare in my school and is usually a language if so.

wombat15 · 14/12/2024 12:36

GrammarTeacher · 14/12/2024 11:18

If you didn't mean they only do two sciences then I'm not sure what you mean.
We offer dual award every year, but it only runs if they have one full class that want to do it (and have 3 'free' options). It doesn't happen every year.

I meant that they do not offer the dual award. Therefore if one or two people want to drop a GCSE they would have to do two single sciences. Do students never drop a subject at your school during year 10 or 11?

MumDoingMyBest · 14/12/2024 11:48

wombat15 · 13/12/2024 13:29

As I said, they do triple sciences at the grammar schools where I live. They can drop one so will be doing two. I think that is less complicated for the school time table wise. The comprehensives do double and if those pupils go to grammar at sixth form for science A levels it is harder for them.

This sounds like either poor communication or poor teaching (or both!) from the grammar school.
By which I mean that the grammar school is probably not covering from an appropriate starting point in the A level classes the content that is only included in the triple sciences. Which might be reasonable to do if they let students moving to the school know that is what they were going to do and the topics they needed to do some prep work for.

It doesn't seem like irrefutable proof that triple science students do better than double science students.

GrammarTeacher · 14/12/2024 11:18

wombat15 · 14/12/2024 11:09

Yes, it would be separate to the dual award as the majority of grammar schools in my area don't offer it. I didn't mean that a lot of students drop a science and only do two. It was assuming that one or two students did as it happens with other subjects too.

If you didn't mean they only do two sciences then I'm not sure what you mean.
We offer dual award every year, but it only runs if they have one full class that want to do it (and have 3 'free' options). It doesn't happen every year.

theresapossuminthekitchen · 14/12/2024 11:18

They almost certainly haven’t finished covering the content at this stage in Year 11, especially not for triple science. Most schools struggle to cover everything by Easter, let alone Christmas.

I strongly suspect that they’ve realised that there’s no way they are going to be able to finish the course and are making the only decision they feel will result in good grades for the kids. It’s reflective of the terrible state that many schools are in - there aren’t enough teachers and there are even fewer who can teach sciences, especially chemistry and physics at triple science level.

wombat15 · 14/12/2024 11:09

GrammarTeacher · 14/12/2024 09:07

I have never known this to happen in a state grammar school as all sciences have to be covered in NC.
If they drop from 3 to 2 that would be separate to dual award.

Yes, it would be separate to the dual award as the majority of grammar schools in my area don't offer it. I didn't mean that a lot of students drop a science and only do two. It was assuming that one or two students did as it happens with other subjects too.

HarrietPierce · 14/12/2024 11:05

Grammarnut you really don't understand dyslexia do you ?

BrightYellowTrain · 14/12/2024 09:50

It is worth reading JCQ’s access arrangement guidance. Has DD tried a computer reader? Computer readers can be used even in the section of GCSE English Language where a reader isn’t allowed.

Some candidates are allowed to have spell check enabled in exams other than MFL exams. It explains this in JCQ guidance. They forgo the SPaG marks so the benefits need to be weighed up against that, but for some it is still better to use spell check.

Spacecowboys · 14/12/2024 09:45

TeenToTwenties · 14/12/2024 09:38

How much of the syllabus is still to teach?
They may have taught all the double content but realised they are too behind on the 'extra' content to get it all done?

Is there an alternate entrance to the T level whereby she does a related level 2 for a year and can progress provided she gets a Merit?

Don't underestimate the writing required for a level 3 vocational course. As she's dyslexic a year at level 2 first may actually be beneficial.

Good point about whether they may be too behind with the syllabus. Last year, for dc they were still covering new content when they broke up for Easter!

TeenToTwenties · 14/12/2024 09:38

How much of the syllabus is still to teach?
They may have taught all the double content but realised they are too behind on the 'extra' content to get it all done?

Is there an alternate entrance to the T level whereby she does a related level 2 for a year and can progress provided she gets a Merit?

Don't underestimate the writing required for a level 3 vocational course. As she's dyslexic a year at level 2 first may actually be beneficial.

Spacecowboys · 14/12/2024 09:31

Your right to be angry, this change should have been for the next academic year. At dc’s school, only the top 30 of the year do triple. It doesn’t use up an option- they cover the content in the same number of lessons as double science. If dd has actually used an option for triple, they shouldn’t be removing it at this stage. From the schools perspective (and most of the students) two 6’s is better than three 5’s so that’s how they are looking at it. But I appreciate that’s not the case for your dd. I’d push back on this one and speak to school.

GrammarTeacher · 14/12/2024 09:11

CarefulN0w · 13/12/2024 14:43

Off topic, I know but I'm interested in why her laptop software doesn't have a spell check. Have the school given a rationale?

By contrast my DD doesn't have dyslexia and uses a spellchecker extensively. Much of her written work is typed as her state school have a bring you own device expectation. I appreciate there are arguments for and against spellcheckers although most workplaces routinely use them but I'm curious to know why a school has provided a device without.

Because you have to disable the spell check for English Language. 32/160 marks go effectively on spelling, punctuation and grammar.

GrammarTeacher · 14/12/2024 09:07

wombat15 · 13/12/2024 13:29

As I said, they do triple sciences at the grammar schools where I live. They can drop one so will be doing two. I think that is less complicated for the school time table wise. The comprehensives do double and if those pupils go to grammar at sixth form for science A levels it is harder for them.

I have never known this to happen in a state grammar school as all sciences have to be covered in NC.
If they drop from 3 to 2 that would be separate to dual award.

caringcarer · 14/12/2024 08:52

You could tell school to still enter her for the triple award and get a tutor for your DD one evening a week.

Moglet4 · 14/12/2024 08:44

LolaLouise · 13/12/2024 09:16

Top universities and medical schools require the highest grades in a broad range of subjects. There is no preference to the GCSE subjects, specifically no requirement to study triple science. Most other schools in the trust have not offered Separate Science for some time now and have demonstrated improvement of results, as well as students moving on to excel at both A level and degree level Science related subjects.

For this reason, as a department and as a School, after careful consideration of all the information and research we have done, as well as analysis of the most recent examinations we have concluded that we will be entering all year 11 students for combined Science. This will provide your son/daughter with the best opportunity at receiving two strong grades in Science at GCSE.

This is their reasoning.

It’s very unreasonable for them to do this at this stage. That said, it is very unusual to offer single sciences to pupils who are aiming for 5s - they seem to just be a bit late to the game in realising this! It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if they are struggling with having specialist teachers and they are right that it will maximise the students’ chances of getting higher grades; it is poor to have done this at this stage though. I would look for a plan B - speak to the school and ask if they would enter her for separate sciences if she self-studies the remainder of the courses (it’s an extra third in each science) then pay for a tutor yourself. Speak to the college and explain the circumstances- they might offer flexibility if she could get a 6 in one subject, even if she then got a 4 in another. Third option would be to get a tutor in one of her other subjects to pull it up to a 5. Not sure there’s much else you can do tbh

Grammarnut · 14/12/2024 08:39

LolaLouise · 14/12/2024 00:29

Because they are shorter answers, she can answer in bullet point for the most part not blocks of continous text that have to flow and cover a wide varoety of points to obtain the marks. Because its facts and calculations she can remember or work out. Because English requires her to be creative on the spot and use language to articulate that creativity, something not required in a factual subject. They can prepare for English exams, the style of writing etc, but they never know 100% what the question focus will be, trying to do that under exam conditions is very difficult for her.

Im not sure why you are being so rude about it. She is naturally better at maths based subjects, she is naturally better at remebering facts than she is at being creative with language. All lot of kids hapen to be better at some subjects over other. If Id come on an said my daughter excels in English, art, drama, music, dance etc but struggles with maths, would you be as judgemental?

Dyslexia is not just about reading, pity you cant put your top notch reading skills to some use and educate yourself.

As well as the problems already mentioned, the symptoms of dyslexia in older children and adults can include:

  • poorly organised written work that lacks expression (for example, even though they may be very knowledgeable about a certain subject, they may have problems expressing that knowledge in writing)
  • difficulty planning and writing essays, letters or reports
  • difficulties revising for examinations
  • trying to avoid reading and writing whenever possible
  • difficulty taking notes or copying
  • poor spelling
  • struggling to remember things such as a PIN or telephone number
  • struggling to meet deadlines

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/dyslexia/symptoms/

I was not being hostile, I was wondering, since dyslexia is a complex of symptoms. It is a bit hostile to tell me to 'educate myself' (always a hostile instruction afaik) - I asked for information.
I now have it, I sympathise and I understand better. (Though I am always curious that dyslexia appears more frequently and with more complex problems in English speakers than anywhere else, but that's another problem, of course.) Thank you.

SnowyIcySnow · 14/12/2024 08:33

Grammarnut · 13/12/2024 23:25

Reading a science text requires no less skill than a literature text. Both still require ability to decode + knowledge so that vocabulary can be understood. So, I can read Middlemarch and also a scientific textbook on relativity. Understanding of the text depends on background knowledge; my ability to decode depends on phonic knowledge. Put together and you are reading.

It is crystal clear you have no experience of learning differences.
Your view of dyslexia, and the different ways it affects different people is woefully lacking. Dyslexia affects so, so much more than "just reading a text". Some people with dyslexia don't read phonetically.
Please accept what several people have told you on this thread that the OPs daughter is going to be badly affected by this switch. We would be in a similar situation if it happened to my child - a child looking to do 4 A levels, but will be "lucky to get a 4 in English".

@LolaLouise good luck to your daughter. School have behaved appallingly. I hope you can sift through the unhelpful replies, and collect the useful ones into a compelling argument to support your daughter to achieve her next goals.

Greywhippet · 14/12/2024 08:13

LolaLouise · 13/12/2024 09:16

Top universities and medical schools require the highest grades in a broad range of subjects. There is no preference to the GCSE subjects, specifically no requirement to study triple science. Most other schools in the trust have not offered Separate Science for some time now and have demonstrated improvement of results, as well as students moving on to excel at both A level and degree level Science related subjects.

For this reason, as a department and as a School, after careful consideration of all the information and research we have done, as well as analysis of the most recent examinations we have concluded that we will be entering all year 11 students for combined Science. This will provide your son/daughter with the best opportunity at receiving two strong grades in Science at GCSE.

This is their reasoning.

That reasoning sounds like gaming results. Presumably they did badly as a cohort in the mocks. Really poor from the school but absolutely standard these days - league tables and ofsted combined with tight staffing and budgets. Education and the students are the losers.

MigGril · 14/12/2024 08:00

CarefulN0w · 13/12/2024 14:43

Off topic, I know but I'm interested in why her laptop software doesn't have a spell check. Have the school given a rationale?

By contrast my DD doesn't have dyslexia and uses a spellchecker extensively. Much of her written work is typed as her state school have a bring you own device expectation. I appreciate there are arguments for and against spellcheckers although most workplaces routinely use them but I'm curious to know why a school has provided a device without.

@CarefulN0w they aren't allowed to have devices with spell checkers for the exams. Even for students with additional needs. But typing and being able to rearrange text can be really helpful.

Op I'm dyslexic and was very strong in maths and science yet struggled in English. I would speak to school but also contact college, I think you will that they will be flexible given the schools decision.