to not understand MNers against neurodiversity

The school is trying to juggle multiple conflicting needs. The parents are only focused on their own child - which I understand, that's their job, but they sometimes refuse to even consider that any other child has needs.

The other child’s needs aren’t my concern though - this is something repeatedly said to me when my ND daughter was being seriously bullied by NT kids in her class. I knew the other kids had their own vulnerabilities and while the school needs to balance those needs, I don’t and certainly not at my daughters expense.

I literally don’t care what needs another child has when my own daughter is vulnerable in her own right and being terrorised by other kids. And certainly not if it means kids actively bullying her are being given space to do so on the basis that they have a difficult home life. I don’t need the school to punish the other kids, I do need them to keep my daughter safe.

Yes, it should be, and sometimes is. But other times a more toxic narrative of kindness no matter what is pushed instead (by teachers as well).

There's sometimes the feeling that the NT kid is more resilient and can deal with a difficult school environment better than their Nd peer, so the latter should be prioritised. I've had conversations with parents where they basically argue word-for-word for exactly that. I vehemently disagree.

If nothing else, it is damaging for the other children in the class, especially girls imo. "Yes, Johnny hit you but he's not going to face any consequences because it's not his fault".

Surely it should be “yes Johnny hit you, that wasn’t ok and this is what we’re going to do to keep you safe in school” while working with Johnny to access the supports he needs to be safe around other kids.

Certainly, one of the main reasons for consequences is to reduce the chance of the behaviour reoccurring. Though I would argue that it's not just aimed at the original 'instigator' (can't think of better word at the moment) but also to reduce the likelihood of similar behaviour from others.

So in an adult context, if I see other people get away with e.g. shoplifting, I might be more likely to try myself.

I'm especially focusing on the effects of difficult behaviour on others because that's one of the main points of contention between parents of Nd kids (and many Nt kids in other contexts) and schools.

The school is trying to juggle multiple conflicting needs. The parents are only focused on their own child - which I understand, that's their job, but they sometimes refuse to even consider that any other child has needs.

I often come back to thinking "so what?" when a parents explains their child is Nd. I know they are, but what comes next? Some parents don't go beyond that first explanation to try to explore strategies to help/mitigate. Of course, many parents do, in which case it is a school's duty to try to work with them as constructively as possible.

Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment - Are you saying that the point of consequences is to signal to other children that justice has been performed?

I thought the point of consequences is to try to reduce the likelihood of something happening again in the future. For some ND children in some scenarios, a consequence isn't going to achieve that - in fact it might achieve the opposite ie making them more dysregulated/anxious so they are more likely to hit. What would make the hitting less likely in the future is probably something more proactive which happens before any hitting is imminent.

"you do not have to play with them, and you are completely justified in ignoring them from now on" - this is totally separate to school consequences, isn't it?

I don't have a solution that would fix everything and work for everybody. What I firmly believe is that the parents who refuse to put in place any boundaries or consequences are definitely not helping (from your description it sounds like you're definitely not one of them, this is just a general rant aimed at some of the parents I've had to deal with over the years).

If nothing else, it is damaging for the other children in the class, especially girls imo. "Yes, Johnny hit you but he's not going to face any consequences because it's not his fault". So we're teaching children that it's ok to be hit in some circumstances and that they have to be "kind" and "understanding" in return.

Judging by the number of horrific dv posts on Mumsnet, I think we'd do better to teach kids to take an absolute 0 tolerance policy to violence. Someone hits you? Then they are not your friend, you do not have to play with them, and you are completely justified in ignoring them from now on.

Of course, there are many fantastic parents who do their best to acknowledge the needs of other's while advocating for their own child. I acknowledge it must be a terrible situation for them and there are no perfect answers. However, I will never stop being astonished by just how blinkered, short-term and delusional some parents can appear. It sometimes makes me want to stop teaching and get a job in a back office somewhere far away from entitled members of the public!

What reports suggest anyone looking for an ADHD diagnosis will get it?

I do disagree. I believe you only get it if you're living it. There's no way on earth you can comprehend it otherwise.

Both my DC have complex needs including neurodiversity, they have had amazing support from teachers, support workers, family members and friends. My friends may not live my life with my DC daily but they absolutely get why things are harder or why my kids need a different approach to parenting. Yes there are some folk so lacking in basic empathy that they just don’t get it but, in my life, they are relatively few.

Thanks to all who have taken the time to share their experiences. Genuinely found this thread helpful for my understanding.

I do recruitment in the Civil Service and find that people are much more open about their ND diagnoses and asking for adjustments. I have worked with several colleagues with varying degrees of autism and other characteristics and try to be absolutely fair when assessing whether someone is a good fit for a particular role. I have certainly passed many people with a diagnosis (self declared).

There is still suspicion and bias amongst fellow panel members but it’s improving.

I still have my own biases. E.g. Have read the reports that basically anyone looking for an ADHD diagnosis will get it so it’s become meaningless. Have seen parents of my DC’s friends relentlessly pursue a diagnosis to get them some advantage such as a place in an over subscribed school or additional exam time or a bursary.

The complaints about modern education being ‘all must have prizes’ is moving to ‘all must have diagnoses’. It is a bit exhausting.

That is a really good point @Tittat50 - sometimes you can recognise just by what's coming through in the text.

Maybe that's why it feels similar to the "People cry LTB too easily" threads? Because people with lived experience can detect something which seems invisible to others?

I know that with the LTB threads I worked out what the unsaid thing was - it's basically when you can see from a poster's descriptions of how their partner relates to them that their partner has contempt for them or doesn't have compassion for them, at all. And to someone looking from the outside, they'd see something like "He didn't make you a sandwich? WTF? Why are people saying LTB over him not making you a sandwich?? I don't make my partner a sandwich, I guess he should leave me!"

Because it's not about the sandwich, it's about the entire scenario around the sandwich, OP is often completely ground down and exhausted and has nothing left from trying to meet their partner's demands all the time and then he has an opportunity to make amends by noticing that she is struggling and he completely blanks it. (There are usually multiple examples of this on the threads, too.)

There must be a similar thing with "Maybe it's ND?" threads - I think it's probably the ones where the OP has already tried all of the usual parenting approaches and literally nothing ever works. Then they get infuriating responses

"You need to get really strict. Find his currency. Take his bedroom door off and make him earn it back."

"You are being much too strict! OMG you shouted once!! That's why he is shouting back at you."

"You haven't tried enough things. If something isn't working you need to try something else."

"You are trying too many things!! No wonder he is confused!" (When they list say 8-10 approaches they have tried over the course of 4 years or so).

I do disagree. I believe you only get it if you're living it. There's no way on earth you can comprehend it otherwise. The only exception I'd say is a professional assessor with extensive experience and that's only some of them. The stuff I've heard SENCOs say and so called MH professionals say is mind-blowing. Young women are often diagnosed by so called professionals with Borderline Personality Disorder and they just needed a professional experienced in assessing for Autism or ADHD.

I continually said 'oh it can't be Autism ' because my child doesn't do this, they are sociable they do this they do that. And this is how it goes. It's almost formulaic in how this unfolds for many of Not one person backed me in my insistence something was going on which says it all. Mum's always know if they just listen to their instincts and just research a bit more and ignore stereotypes such as lining up cars and is not sociable.

I'm NT, so by living it I mean only as a parent. I've no idea regarding adults and would not be able to offer much there on those threads as I don't understand that experience.

I have not read one single thread involving kids /parenting where someone suggested ND and I disagreed. Not one yet. The ones saying it's worth considering will be parents with similar ND kids most the time I would say.

Can I just say a big thank you for trying to do something. I once had quite serious issues with an adult with MH problems. I was told 'oh he can't help it", "you know he's like that". I didn't know he was like that. I didn't know he didn't take responsibility for his behaviour and blamed everyone else for it. If I did I would have stayed the hell away from him.

I think the “dash” means “to date” ie it’s still in extended use today. That is the context in which it was intended anyway.

@Sugarcoldturkey of course you shouldn’t just be “okay” with being hit, and nor should the children in your class. But what is the solution for these autistic children with that specific presentation? LA’s seem to want them in MS schools, while plenty of fellow parents seem to want them in some kind of secure accommodation away from everyone else (which is of course what used to happen). Should we be so regressive? We don’t take that approach with MH, some presentations of which can also have adverse effects.

I am not, and would never justify violence. I have stood over my child while he writes a letter apologizing for his actions, apologized myself in the class WhatsApp group and to teachers, even stood up in a parents meeting to explain my child’s disability and apologise (in advance) for his communication difficulties. Ive gone cap-in-hand to the LA, cried on the SENco… I’ve done consequences, withheld treats, confiscated toys… I’ve tried therapy (for both of us), I’ve read books, indulged teachers’ and hcp’s theories about his behaviour, and strategized my socks off. What I’ve learned is: nothing makes a difference to DS. Oh, and I am exhausted with it!

I don’t want to be that “sorry, he’s ND” parent making excuses, but it’s all I’ve got, and occasionally my DS has to leave the house and demonstrate just what “social and communication difficulties” can look like, for an unlucky few.

@Deeperthantheocean and sorry I know you didn't ask about me being a TA someone else did pages ago and I can't be bothered hunting back through!

I've seen this too and basically I think children are occasionally given a diagnosis as a way of getting them some support rather than nothing, especially when there are no functional adults attending to their needs. Although it's more common to see the opposite - children who are obviously ND and parents won't agree to assessment for various reasons OR are stuck on a waiting list for literally years.

I've also dealt with an adult who was desperate to get an autism diagnosis. He had self-diagnosed and was using his 'autism' to behave appallingly. He was furious when a whole psych team bluntly told him he didn't have autism and no, they would not be supporting reasonable adjustments in his workplace for a condition he didn't have. Also telling people to fuck off whenever he felt like it wasn't because he had autism and reasonable adjustments didn't include telling people to fuck off.

And if a TA is a teaching assistant no I'm not a TA. I'm not heroic enough to deal with what they endure on their frankly insulting wages. My friend is a assistant who was formerly a teacher and who jacked it in. She'll be leaving her job as soon as her youngest leaves primary school. They are desperate to fill the shortage of both teachers and assistants in her school because of the nightmare parents I previously described. Most of the ND pupils she works with are fantastic children doing their best. A handful have toxic behaviours and attitudes because the adults 'raising' them are toxic.

Just to add, obviously not all children with autism behave in the way I described. Many are an absolute delight to teach. Generalisations to describe all Nd children are of course not helpful.

As the teacher listening to parents explain their kids "lashing out" because of autism, I inwardly ask so what? I believe your child has autism. I believe that it is causing a lot of the behaviour issues. However, am I supposed to be ok being hit in my workplace? Are other children supposed to be fine with an unpredictable, sometimes aggressive child in their midst? Are there to be no consequences for bad behaviour because a child is Nd? How will that teach them and the other children what behaviour is expected?

I am happy to work with parents to put strategies in place, to try different approaches etc but I would appreciate it if parents would also look at things from the perspective of the other parents, children and teachers involved.

I would also like to say the root of all these problems is likely to be in my cerebellum. This brain part has been shown to be smaller in autopsies on autistic people.

This part of the brain deals with movement and coordination and is likely also play a role in language and social cognition. Most people will feel nervous in interviews. Most people won’t have a brain that can’t process fully what is needed to complete the interview.

I am also always covered in bruises due to extreme clumsiness.

I have a job interview next week. The employer is giving out the questions one day in advance to Everyone to be inclusive. I feel this is great because although interviews are tough on everyone they are even tougher on those who have struggle with social communication.

For me, even though I am verbal and can write well I can struggle with putting thoughts into words. It’s like my language processing runs slower than everyone else’s. I need time to answer questions. I also find it hard to generate small talk and try to plan in advance some things to talk about if I have any social event to go to. People often ask me questions and get annoyed when I look at them blankly and trying to process what was said and put an answer into words.

I can also struggle to understand language beyond the non literal and won’t always get straight away what intention of the question is. Questions the day before allow time to think about the meaning and what it is that they want to hear from me.

Many well qualified autistic people can’t get past the interview stage and are actually unemployed. Unless high level social skills whilst thinking on your feet are central to the role, I would say interviews can be a form of discrimination.

I think it’s great when those with a neuro- developmental social communication disorder progress to the stage where communication is not a problem, but this is a spectrum and it is not possible for all of us. It is not possible for many to speak or work at all. There is also a spectrum of support needs in people who can speak and can work. My problems are not a lack of effort on my part, they are the in my neurology. I can’t change that the structure of my brain won’t allow my to process language and social information as it should.

My processing is so distorted. If I’m am in a group conversation I cannot sense when it is my turn to talk. It’s like I am always out of time. This leads to me either accidentally interrupting or being too quiet. Both scenarios lead to me being accused of being rude.

If I am in a crowded restaurant, I can hear everyone talking but cannot hear what is being said to me by the person I want to talk to. It’s like my brain can hear everything and nothing. This can also be a problem in a busy open plan office. The job I have applied for means taking calls from clients, I will have to request a quiet area to work. It’s a hybrid role but they want me in the office sometimes. I can manage the communication with clients as the advice I will be giving is knowledge based and technical and not small talk!
I have the knowledge in advance.

i actually feel I need to work a lot from home to avoid burnout. I have suffered breakdowns trying to push through the sensory and social side of work and the commute in the past. I have looked for roles where this is possible.

Actually, many employers will give all candidates the questions in advance if a candidate asks for it, to ensure fairness.

I think neurodiversity and some sort of affect on capacity or capability (whether trauma related) is in region of 40%.

So yeah it's massive and explains sooooo much.

@Jifmicroliquid I think although job interview questions in advance would be a good thing for lots of people, it would be particularly beneficial for people who have slower processing or working memory differences, which are common in autism. I don't think it's just that some of us would like it, it's more that it would help put us on an even playing field as most people don't have those differences in play when being interviewed.

In the example I gave, everyone was given the questions in advance, but I was the highest scoring candidate. I sincerely doubt I would have been if I hadn't had that little bit of time before to process the question. I'm now the highest performer in my team.

@Jifmicroliquid yes we do sound a bit similar 😆

I agree with you that having more flexibility in the way services, jobs etc operate would benefit everyone - not just autistic people.

It would also give autistic people more choice in jobs, for example I doubt I'd make it into the civil service due to testing (I work in local government).

It'd also benefit society in general and those organisations too, as we have a lot to offer.

Thats interesting because I imagine interview situations are extremely stressful for a lot of people, whether they are ND or not. Realistically I imagine most people would prefer to be given the questions in advance to plan good answers that reflect their true abilities. In fact, I doubt there are many people wouldn’t want the questions in advance.

I guess what I’m trying to get at is a lot of adjustments that autistic people would like for themselves would probably be of benefit to everyone.

This is maybe why I’ve found myself unable to think of anything, that as an autistic person, I would like changing. Because in a lot of cases, ordinary people also struggle with these things and it would be unreasonable for me to ask for/expect changes that a lot of NT people struggle with aswell. So I feel that it’s up to me to try and work a way round it, or essentially just get on with it.

I hope that doesn’t sound horrible, but that’s how my ND brain seems to work.

Yes and that’s from 1938. Language has moved on.

Doubling down isn’t helpful. People with mental health diagnoses experience a lot of stigma and discrimination.

It really is not a description to use on a post where you go on to talk about ableism..