to not understand MNers against neurodiversity

Restraint is used a lot for children and adults with disabilities. It usually goes by some other wording such as positive handling or a safe hold.

You'll find most special schools have staff trained in team teach or similar and nearly all have safe spaces (usually padded rooms to put a child that is in crisis.

The government have set targets to get people with autism removed from ATU's (units). They get held in these for years esentially because of how funding works. The LA dont want to pay for what the person needs to live in the community so they get hospitalised, which is daft because it usually costs more and is awful for the prrson and their family.

This was in the news a couple of weeks ago.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjw0e3zjx2lo?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2m-pQ-7MbbuvcWF1-0RkhkuPccHSw6cjm_Y5i_v0arJnEmOeatMe1wfho_aem__nuWarAe8hQkxxpu-SSbzg

You introduced restraint into the discussion and are the one saying you want to know how to manage ND children without it and that your government has felt the need to bring in laws to limit it. There are many,many stories of autistic children being subjected to restraint and poor treatment. People with autistim have a much higher likelihood of being subjected to it. That isn’t hyperbolic language, it’s reality.

Yes it's really wearing. I hear you! And beautifully illustrates my earlier posts. Thankfully it is genuinely a minority of parents/ children and sometimes it's more about narcissism than ND. The trouble is it prevents open, meaningful discussion about improvements which actually harms the ND children and adults most affected!

Tbh I find this sort of emotive, exaggerated language very emotionally draining to listen to. There obviously aren't "hoards" of children being "locked up" anywhere. I wish we could have debates on this topic without reaching for hyperbolic language that just inflames a situation rather than de-escalates and reassures. It's exhausting.

Tbh I find this sort of emotive, exaggerated language very emotionally draining to listen to. There obviously aren't "hoards" of children being "locked up" anywhere. I wish we could have debates on this topic without reaching for hyperbolic language that just inflames a situation rather than de-escalates and reassures. It's exhausting.

@BertieBotts and @Sugarcoldturkey the ideal result of bad behaviour would be something that did both.

So if my DS does something silly (banging the milk bottle on the table, calling his sister dumb) we ignore it (often he will then draw attention to his behaviour which we also then ignore!) but tell DD why we are ignoring it. So she can then try that strategy for herself, which she has started to do.

If he hurts someone on purpose or does something to get attention but which could be dangerous for him (e.g. waving scissors around, prancing around naked when we're answering the door) then it's "do you want to do that or do you want your screen time" and we are now up to at least 75% of the time he wants screen time and desists. It has to be immediate and presented as a choice, and it's only worth doing for more serious things where one instance can be dangerous. DD then sees him getting a consequence and we had to persist and also recognise the time limits - no good telling him he'd choosing between pulling his sister's hair now and playing on his Switch tomorrow.

We manage children with autism without restraining and locking them in rooms, starting to see why so many kids with autism are abused by services.

”the numbers start to add up”- as I said what is your school doing?We don’t have hoards of children hurt by ND children or ND needing to be restrained. 🤔We meet their needs and have safeguarding measures in place.

I hate it when people say 'I'm ND, so other People who are neurodivergent should do exactly what I do.'
Each person has their own unique challenges and your experiences are your own and don't necessarily work for others.

As a society we should be more understanding and inclusive and change school and work environments to help people teach their full potential.

I hate it when people say 'I'm ND, so other People who are neurodivergent should do exactly what I do.'
Each person has their own unique challenges and your experiences are your own and don't necessarily work for others.

As a society we should be more understanding and inclusive and change school and work environments to help people teach their full potential.

They aren't, but over a long career and in a school of several thousand pupils, the numbers do start adding up. It's also the pressure of the "what if". We have to plan for every reasonable eventuality, and a kid having a meltdown is a reasonable possibility. It's tiring to know that no matter what you do, someone won't be happy about it.

I am autistic, but I do believe people are too quick to jump to the ND ‘label’.
I was diagnosed late and I am relieved that was the case. I learnt to adapt to society as I had no choice. As a result I am a fully functioning member of society who nobody would suspect was autistic. Given too much help or leeway, I don’t think I’d be the capable and independent person I am today.
That’s what frustrates me I suppose, the notion that the world is going to bend for ND people. It doesn’t. And that’s why we need to prepare ND people for living in it, and that often means tough love and pushing people out of their comfort zone.
Schools are doing ND kids a huge disservice by not setting them up for the real world. Yes it’s harder for us, but that’s just the way it is.

I think the problem with neurodiversity is that behaviour affects not just the individual displaying it, but those around them, be that within an intimate relationship or in a classroom setting, and when those behaviour traits are negative they can cause lasting damage.

A new kid started in DD class who clearly has some fairly significant ND and accompanying behavioural issues. Unfortunately his behaviour has had a negative and lasting impact on several of his classmates, impacting their education and mental health. But I have definitely notice a degree of dismissiveness from some with ND used as an excuse. Frankly my priority is my DD safety and education, his ND is not my problem.

Why are ND children in your school regularly having melt downs? Melt downs are due to needs not being met .

Oh come on, name me a school that doesn’t put consequences into place if children are physically attacked? How are they passing Ofsted safeguarding inspections?

If you are a teacher you must know that it’s perfectly possible to put in meaningful consequences and procedures so that it doesn’t happen again. All school should be doing that. If they’re not and have children repeatedly attacked by children ALL children are being let down. A child repeatedly attacking other children is not having his/her( yes girls can lash out) needs met.

It’s funny I work in a school with a high level of need and children getting hurt by other children is rare. When it happens for whatever reason consequences and procedures are put in place. Nearly all our children who have a tricky start make so much progress year on year.

The demonising on here of autistic children and parents seeking diagnosis and support is appalling.

Yes, I would agree. A difficult home life, or neuro divergence, or anything at all should not be used as an excuse for bad behaviour. It can be a good reason for it that can hopefully help prevent repeats in the future, but it is not an excuse.

Anyone being bullied is unacceptable, no matter how difficult the bully's home life is. No aggression towards other kids is acceptable, no matter who is Nd or not.

I suppose I'm especially worked up at the moment because the Irish government has just come out with new guidelines to prevent the use of "seclusion" against vulnerable kids. Sounds great on the surface, but included in the definition of seclusion is "physically preventing a student from leaving through the use of a locked door, a blocked door or an exit held closed by a staff member."

So imagine a student has a meltdown, the other kids are scared and potentially in danger, I as the only adult present decide to get my class out into the corridor where they're safe and keep the kid having a meltdown safe inside the classroom (where I can see them through the glass) until another adult arrives who can help them.

Then the parents of the Nd child complain that I am unfairly punishing their child and going against the guidelines etc. But if I didn't separate the kids, then all the other parents would be complaining that their children are being stressed and exposed to aggression and potentially dangerous behaviour.

It's a horrible catch-22 situation and I'm exhausted just thinking about it.

The school is trying to juggle multiple conflicting needs. The parents are only focused on their own child - which I understand, that's their job, but they sometimes refuse to even consider that any other child has needs.

The other child’s needs aren’t my concern though - this is something repeatedly said to me when my ND daughter was being seriously bullied by NT kids in her class. I knew the other kids had their own vulnerabilities and while the school needs to balance those needs, I don’t and certainly not at my daughters expense.

I literally don’t care what needs another child has when my own daughter is vulnerable in her own right and being terrorised by other kids. And certainly not if it means kids actively bullying her are being given space to do so on the basis that they have a difficult home life. I don’t need the school to punish the other kids, I do need them to keep my daughter safe.

I don't have a solution that would fix everything and work for everybody. What I firmly believe is that the parents who refuse to put in place any boundaries or consequences are definitely not helping (from your description it sounds like you're definitely not one of them, this is just a general rant aimed at some of the parents I've had to deal with over the years).

If nothing else, it is damaging for the other children in the class, especially girls imo. "Yes, Johnny hit you but he's not going to face any consequences because it's not his fault". So we're teaching children that it's ok to be hit in some circumstances and that they have to be "kind" and "understanding" in return.

Judging by the number of horrific dv posts on Mumsnet, I think we'd do better to teach kids to take an absolute 0 tolerance policy to violence. Someone hits you? Then they are not your friend, you do not have to play with them, and you are completely justified in ignoring them from now on.

Of course, there are many fantastic parents who do their best to acknowledge the needs of other's while advocating for their own child. I acknowledge it must be a terrible situation for them and there are no perfect answers. However, I will never stop being astonished by just how blinkered, short-term and delusional some parents can appear. It sometimes makes me want to stop teaching and get a job in a back office somewhere far away from entitled members of the public!