Page 15 | to not understand MNers against neurodiversity

UkiUki · 2024-12-12T13:30:02+00:00

Inspired by another thread on here today but it’s an ongoing trend. I’ve noticed that most, if not all of the time, when a poster suggests that a behaviour may be caused by ND, other posters jump on them and seem enraged that ‘everything is explained away with neurodiversity these days’. There has been a lot of progress in understanding these conditions which has naturally contributed to an increase in people getting diagnosed. It is especially increasing in females as, per most medical issues, the parameters for diagnoses were created around male behaviour. As someone currently in the latter part of the long and stressful diagnosis process, my motivation to suggest ND when I recognise certain traits in situations described is that my heart goes out to those who could flourish with a little extra understanding of how their brains work, especially children. I believe I would be a different person now if I’d had the support I needed growing up, instead of just believing I was lazy, clumsy and weird. I feel a lot of irritation and sometimes outright anger from some posters, and the suggestion that people are using ND as an excuse somehow. Aibu to not understand where this annoyance comes from?

drspouse · 12/12/2024 16:02

CarefulN0w · 12/12/2024 15:59

Either way, I think posting “maybe you could try A to deal with X” is far more helpful than “maybe your child has something wrong with their brain because I do”, which is rude, invasive, overstepping and inappropriate!

Do you think perhaps by reducing neurodiversity to "something wrong with your brain" it is you who are being rude? Remember a lot of people with Autism and ADHD are also hugely talented and successful.

But both of them are disabilities and you won't get a diagnosis if it isn't disabling you in some way.
And yes, it is probably more sensitive to say "something different about your brain" or "not typical" but it's nonsense to pretend both of these are an advantage to every person who has them in every area of their life.

Snorlaxo · 12/12/2024 16:01

People aren’t against neurodiversity. They see posts where people reply that their loved one is neurodiverse as offensive because there’s a definite societal angle of self diagnosing with conditions that it takes university educated professionals long hours to diagnose. For example I frequently hear people say that they have anxiety when they are about to do something with lots of unknowns like starting a new job or moving to a new area. The people with actual anxiety aren’t losing a night’s sleep over normal life events and lose sympathy when people thrown around anxiety so casually.

I have a diagnosis as does one of my kids and many people assume that people with that diagnosis are all similar. There’s much less recognition that people can have a quirk and not be neurodivergent as well as disabilities affecting people differently. For example many people assume that an autistic person will be like Dustin Hoffman in Rainman or Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory. This is why they feel so confident throwing the neurodivergent comment to a post. Have you ever noticed how often the poster has considered it as a possibility already?

drspouse · 12/12/2024 15:59

adulthoodisajoke · 12/12/2024 13:35

yes this!!

and 'everyones a little autistic'

no they're not! youre either autistic or youre not.

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No... my DS has been assessed by various SALTs and more than one says he has some autistic traits but not enough for a diagnosis.
So while not everyone has autistic traits, some people who nevertheless don't have a diagnosis, and won't get one, have some traits.

I think awareness is fine but I dislike the philosophy of self-diagnosis, and I also dislike the idea that because of some neurodiverse traits/self-diagnosis, we must make accommodations and can't expect many things that the individual would be better off being helped to do, not expected NOT to do.

CarefulN0w · 12/12/2024 15:59

Either way, I think posting “maybe you could try A to deal with X” is far more helpful than “maybe your child has something wrong with their brain because I do”, which is rude, invasive, overstepping and inappropriate!

Do you think perhaps by reducing neurodiversity to "something wrong with your brain" it is you who are being rude? Remember a lot of people with Autism and ADHD are also hugely talented and successful.

CarefulN0w · 12/12/2024 15:52

I work with ND adults. I've yet to meet anyone who didn't have signs in childhood that weren't overlooked or belittled.

It's true that not everyone has ADHD or ASD. It's also true that some people are dicks. But if there are some symptoms why wouldn't you consider it as a possibility whilst acknowledging that it could equally be in the range of normal behaviour or due to another underlying condition? It's not like you can catch neurodivergence by looking into it.

And if I could be paid in chocolate every time someone says it can't be ADHD/Autism because

they make eye contact
they are really sociable
they can focus really hard
they are intelligent
they aren't a mad professor type
they aren't badly behaved
they have a good job

I'd be very very fat.

oakleaffy · 12/12/2024 15:52

It’s seen as a pick your own diagnosis these days, like a pick ‘n ‘Mix at a sweet counter .

Some kids are just naughty and washy parenting doesn’t help.

Many people have quirks, they don’t have to hunt diagnoses.

Bookgrrrl · 12/12/2024 15:52

fitzwilliamdarcy · 12/12/2024 15:20

I agree with all of this.

There are schools where teachers are reporting that nearly half of the kids are either diagnosed ND or under assessment. That suggests that if the trend continues, it'll be more unusual to be NT than ND, and the labels should then in theory have to switch over (because it will be 'typical' to be neurodiverse).

I don't think the widened scope and therefore the massive increase in people seeking diagnosis and support helps those with the most severe symptoms and/or the highest level of impact on daily life. If the diagnosis rates are going to keep increasing then funding will surely have to be targeted.

(Yes, in an ideal world there'd be enough money for all but there isn't).

Agree with you on mental health, too. I was diagnosed with severe co-morbid MH conditions in my teens and have worked for decades whilst essentially hiding everything I was going through. I now know people who are so open about their mental health (which is great), but they don't work, and they claim that everyone who holds down a job either doesn't have any MH conditions or if they do, they're very mild. That really winds me up.

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I also work and have (mostly) worked for 30 years while dealing with my MH. One thing I have noticed recently is how quick doctors are to sign people off with even mild depression/anxiety, despite the research showing this is actually detrimental to people’s MH because it gives them more time to think about the problem. Recent studies have found that the focus on exploring MH in schools is actually detrimental for the same reason. Increasing awareness is great, but increased introspection is not, and we should be more careful with medical diagnoses, or we risk trivialising serious conditions and reinforcing the belief that these issues are ‘just an excuse’ (particularly when a lot of people, like those you mention, ARE now using them as an excuse).

randoname · 12/12/2024 15:50

Jifmicroliquid · 12/12/2024 13:43

I am autistic, but I do believe people are too quick to jump to the ND ‘label’.
I was diagnosed late and I am relieved that was the case. I learnt to adapt to society as I had no choice. As a result I am a fully functioning member of society who nobody would suspect was autistic. Given too much help or leeway, I don’t think I’d be the capable and independent person I am today.
That’s what frustrates me I suppose, the notion that the world is going to bend for ND people. It doesn’t. And that’s why we need to prepare ND people for living in it, and that often means tough love and pushing people out of their comfort zone.
Schools are doing ND kids a huge disservice by not setting them up for the real world. Yes it’s harder for us, but that’s just the way it is.

Exactly this. I have 2 adhd dc who were diagnosed in their 20’s. They have the maturity and tools to accept what is helpful and reject what’s not.
DH is non diagnosed autistic, diagnosed PDA and I have ADHD, not diagnosed but suggested by numerous friends and professionals. DH and I have both had successful academic, professional and personal lives. We’ve also both had relatively minor MH struggles and small middle class “acting outs”. If I’d had the label as a teen or younger I suspect I’d be dead- I’d have school refused and instead of ‘turning to drink’ when masking got unbearable and then having the resources and support to get sober 15 years ago I’d have fully embraced darker more hedonistic distractions much earlier.
A diagnosis isn’t a solution.

Original poster

UkiUki · 12/12/2024 15:48

CanadianHobbit · 12/12/2024 15:44

Regardless of your reasons for being late, it is still disrespectful and selfish to constantly be late. If you know you have so called “time blindness” then take measures to fix the issue, don’t just lean on being ND to explain why you are always late and never actually fix the issue.
It may make you feel better knowing WHY you are always late, but it doesn’t really help the people who are left waiting for you. It just sounds like an excuse.

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I am trying desperately to fix the issue as I feel like a failure every time, but it’s not as easy as using willpower. That is what makes it different from someone who just happens to have poor time management. I don’t ever say to other people it’s because of ND.

OP posts:

CautiousLurker01 · 12/12/2024 15:47

Superworm24 · 12/12/2024 15:27

I get sick of it being used as an excuse. Any thread where the behaviour is selfish then youll see depression and ND used as an excuse. Sometimes people aren't ND they are just arseholes.

And even if the person is ND they still have to be accountable for their actions. I see posts all the time along the lines of I don't see why I/my child/anyone should have to mask their behaviour. It's such a selfish way of looking at things. I am accommodating and sympathetic, and I do understand some of the difficulties and issues around being ND. But everyone else in the world also has issues, wants and needs.

For an example someone will post about children screaming and running around in a coffee shop and it ruining the experience. The replies will be "maybe they are ND, just imagine how difficult it is for the parents." And yes that maybe true but if you've decided to treat yourself to a coffee, which is ridiculously expensive, you have every right not to want to deal with someone else's children.

Another post that regularly comes up which i have a personal experience of is garden use. We had a neighbour a few years ago whose child would constantly scream in the garden from 7am until 8pm. It made wfh during lockdown incredibly difficult as all of our rooms except the kitchen and bathroom faced towards their garden. We couldn't have windows open or sit in the garden due to the constant noise. Was the child ND? Quite possibly and I have sympathy for the parents. But at the same time I should be able to enjoy my own home and garden.

Ultimately there just needs to be balance. Everyone has to share spaces and work together.

Totally agree - if I’d seen your post first I could have saved myself the time of typing mine above!

CanadianHobbit · 12/12/2024 15:44

UkiUki · 12/12/2024 13:40

But I don’t often see people using it to excuse behaviours, just saying that it might explain behaviours. It’s a fine line but I do feel like it’s different. For example, I don’t think that it’s okay for me to be constantly late, pretty much everywhere I go, but I now understand that it’s because I have time blindness, not because I’m lazy and selfish and don’t care about people waiting on me. I work really hard to be on time but the difference now is that I’m not so horrible to myself if I’m late. It also helps family and close friends to understand that I’m not acting in that way because I don’t value them, so creates more harmony in my close relationships.

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Regardless of your reasons for being late, it is still disrespectful and selfish to constantly be late. If you know you have so called “time blindness” then take measures to fix the issue, don’t just lean on being ND to explain why you are always late and never actually fix the issue.
It may make you feel better knowing WHY you are always late, but it doesn’t really help the people who are left waiting for you. It just sounds like an excuse.

fitzwilliamdarcy · 12/12/2024 15:42

TigerRag · 12/12/2024 15:30

And those of us who are ND and don't like loud noise are constantly told on here, tough.

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Exactly. To the extent that MN is helpful to and/or supportive of those who are ND, it's only so to those whose ND means they're unable to prevent themselves from making noise and being disruptive. Anyone whose ND means that they need peace and quiet can get lost. I've seen ND people described as ableist on here for suggesting that some with ND need quiet spaces.

Matronic6 · 12/12/2024 15:42

I don't think people are against neurodiversity. As a teacher there is a huge delay in diagnosis for any kind of SEND and a contributing factor is people pursuing diagnosis that don't apply. I have lost track of the amount of parents who have come to me having convinced their child has autism, ADHD, dyslexia etc and demand child is referred and are irate when there is no progress in weeks. Whilst kids who have been deservedly referred are still on a waiting list 2/3 years on from their original referral.

Too many people without professional experience are giving this advice without actually knowing the whole picture.

Original poster

UkiUki · 12/12/2024 15:41

CreationNat1on · 12/12/2024 15:25

OP it's great that you are learning coping skills, self acceptance and self empathy, but please don't think you need to save the world from ND self loathing or selfharm.

"Captain Save the DAYS" often do more harm than good. You are not equipped to nurse other people through their realisation of ND.

Because of your diagnosis and your personal experiences, it is impossible for you to be impartial. Despite your best intentions, your subjective interpretations will be filtered through your hyper focus on ND.

Your boundaries and judgment are formed by your life experience, you will see ND everywhere, because you are so hyper focused on it yourself. You will lack perspective and balance when forming judgments on those around you.

Your kindly meant suggestions may be harmful to others.

I will reflect on what you’ve said as I don’t want to cause harm unintentionally

OP posts:

CautiousLurker01 · 12/12/2024 15:40

Because not every ‘negative’ behaviour is caused by NDity, nor is every ND person with ND dysfunctional. My children, siblings and I are all ND (various blends of ASD, ADHD, dyspraxia and dyslexia). Not a one of us is alike, in personality nor behaviours. For each disorganised person there is one who is anal/OCD; for each motormouth talkative person there is a shy, deeply introverted one.

The post you refer to was filled with people armchair-diagnosing a 12yo adolescent female who has just started senior school and being forgetful as having ADHD… based on stereotypes, eff all information, and then those PPs doubled-down in the face of the mum/OPs very clear refuting of all the other potential diagnostic criteria (one had the gall to say the mum was wrong, FFS).

Sometimes people are just rude, or introvert, or talkative and extrovert, messy and disorganised, going through puberty and the stress of new senior schools. Not everything is due to neurodiversity and, frankly, it is fricking annoying - and deeply narrow minded - that every negative trait commented on is immediately ascribed to it. Some of us are getting seriously effed off by it.

x2boys · 12/12/2024 15:38

Superworm24 · 12/12/2024 15:27

I get sick of it being used as an excuse. Any thread where the behaviour is selfish then youll see depression and ND used as an excuse. Sometimes people aren't ND they are just arseholes.

And even if the person is ND they still have to be accountable for their actions. I see posts all the time along the lines of I don't see why I/my child/anyone should have to mask their behaviour. It's such a selfish way of looking at things. I am accommodating and sympathetic, and I do understand some of the difficulties and issues around being ND. But everyone else in the world also has issues, wants and needs.

For an example someone will post about children screaming and running around in a coffee shop and it ruining the experience. The replies will be "maybe they are ND, just imagine how difficult it is for the parents." And yes that maybe true but if you've decided to treat yourself to a coffee, which is ridiculously expensive, you have every right not to want to deal with someone else's children.

Another post that regularly comes up which i have a personal experience of is garden use. We had a neighbour a few years ago whose child would constantly scream in the garden from 7am until 8pm. It made wfh during lockdown incredibly difficult as all of our rooms except the kitchen and bathroom faced towards their garden. We couldn't have windows open or sit in the garden due to the constant noise. Was the child ND? Quite possibly and I have sympathy for the parents. But at the same time I should be able to enjoy my own home and garden.

Ultimately there just needs to be balance. Everyone has to share spaces and work together.

Autism is a huge spectrum ,for some people they can't help screaming, my son is 14 and completely non verbal and has a very limited understanding of the world around him He screams loudly and frequently
Of course I don't allow him to do it for hours on end
But sometimes there is a reason for the behaviour my son doesn't havecthe capacity to be accountable for his actions

Superworm24 · 12/12/2024 15:38

Lavenderblossoms · 12/12/2024 15:29

Tbh, it sounds like a parent problem in those posts. The parents could take the child away to calm down if it's a meltdown or take them inside the house if they are screaming. A child learns from it's parents.

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This is my thinking but others say it's ableist.

Original poster

UkiUki · 12/12/2024 15:37

Lavenderblossoms · 12/12/2024 15:23

I get enraged when they suggest shitty and abusive behaviour or someone simply being an arsehole is attributed to being ND and I will call people out on that.

It's very unfair when people reel it out like it's fact when it's someone's opinion.

I'm more likely to hurt myself more than anyone and it really truly upsets me that people think being ADHD is an excuse for things or that it's overdiagnosed or that you are simply abusive with these traits.

It has to stop. Posting things as facts when they are not is downright harmful.

I don't mean symptoms and traits that can be helped like in the workplace or social Etc.

Oh yes, I didn’t mean when people say it as a fact, more when they recognise a trait and suggest it might be worth exploring.

Like you, my ND affects me far more than it affects other people and I get so angry with myself when it affects other people. I know I’d be devastated and quite embarrassed if people thought I was using ND as some sort of excuse which is why I’d be a little reluctant to tell people outside of my inner circle for now, whilst I come to terms with what it means to me.

OP posts:

NiftyKoala · 12/12/2024 15:33

I am one who get angry when immediately it's "they may be ND" as soon as any unwanted behavior in an adult or child comes up. What this does it tar all persons with ND with the same brush. Many many many ND adults and children who may not have these behaviors are now lumped in because any and all behavior must be ND. That is extremely unfair.

Original poster

UkiUki · 12/12/2024 15:33

BananaNirvana · 12/12/2024 15:22

Almost all of my female friends have recently self diagnosed with ADHD - I do think it’s a problem. I work with SEN kids and I worry the frivolous use of the label is leading to people taking it less seriously in CYP, which is a huge concern cos we’ve worked so fucking hard to get it taken seriously in the first place!

”Oh sorry I’m late, it’s my ADHD!” from friends being tossed around is not helpful in the slightest. It’s become the new “I’m a little bit OCD” 😬

I do see the frustration in that. I wouldn’t want it taken less seriously.

OP posts:

Nogaxeh · 12/12/2024 15:31

The above figures are for Scotland.

If everyone is neuro-diverse, or has some additional need, then what does it mean anymore? If you have, for example, everyone identified as needing additional support, do you need a new category for those who need extra additional support?

A category such as Autistic System Disorder only helps us to understand people if it excludes normal people as well as including those who are different in the same way. If you loosen the diagnostic criteria and diagnose everyone who thinks they, or their child, is "a bit aspie" then the diagnosis loses all meaning and usefulness.

It's not easy, because the dividing line for these sorts of things is a bit fuzzy, but you have to try and keep a dividing line for it to be of any use.

Original poster

UkiUki · 12/12/2024 15:30

DyddEira · 12/12/2024 15:21

I agree early diagnosis is important, but I think in recent years there has become a tendency to excuse and minimise negative behaviour that impact on others and berate people raising concerns about these negative behaviours. Rather than the focus of early diagnosis as an opportunity to build effective life skills and adaptations into "normal" society, which whilst it may be exhausting masking, life does require some degree of conformity and adherence to social norms and rules.

Your teacher was a bully.

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Yes, I agree with that.

Thank you, he made life quite unpleasant for me.

OP posts:

TigerRag · 12/12/2024 15:30

Superworm24 · 12/12/2024 15:27

I get sick of it being used as an excuse. Any thread where the behaviour is selfish then youll see depression and ND used as an excuse. Sometimes people aren't ND they are just arseholes.

And even if the person is ND they still have to be accountable for their actions. I see posts all the time along the lines of I don't see why I/my child/anyone should have to mask their behaviour. It's such a selfish way of looking at things. I am accommodating and sympathetic, and I do understand some of the difficulties and issues around being ND. But everyone else in the world also has issues, wants and needs.

For an example someone will post about children screaming and running around in a coffee shop and it ruining the experience. The replies will be "maybe they are ND, just imagine how difficult it is for the parents." And yes that maybe true but if you've decided to treat yourself to a coffee, which is ridiculously expensive, you have every right not to want to deal with someone else's children.

Another post that regularly comes up which i have a personal experience of is garden use. We had a neighbour a few years ago whose child would constantly scream in the garden from 7am until 8pm. It made wfh during lockdown incredibly difficult as all of our rooms except the kitchen and bathroom faced towards their garden. We couldn't have windows open or sit in the garden due to the constant noise. Was the child ND? Quite possibly and I have sympathy for the parents. But at the same time I should be able to enjoy my own home and garden.

Ultimately there just needs to be balance. Everyone has to share spaces and work together.

And those of us who are ND and don't like loud noise are constantly told on here, tough.

Keepingittogetherstepbystep · 12/12/2024 15:29

Locutus2000 · 12/12/2024 13:37

I believe I would be a different person now if I’d had the support I needed growing up, instead of just believing I was lazy, clumsy and weird.

Preach, sister. Many GenXers are in the same boat, myself included. So painful to think what might have been, after watching niblings who have thankfully had support in their early and teen years.

Me too

I just sat and bawled my eyes out when I read a book that summed me up to a t when my GP suggested adhd. I've struggled my whole life with stupid things but despite not being able to revise I've got a MSc so can't possibly have any issues ive been told. Once I calmed down then I got angry at the life I could have had. The worse thing for me is I was taken to the Dr's a lot as a kid and was told I'd either grow out of it or it was all in my head.

Lavenderblossoms · 12/12/2024 15:29

Superworm24 · 12/12/2024 15:27

I get sick of it being used as an excuse. Any thread where the behaviour is selfish then youll see depression and ND used as an excuse. Sometimes people aren't ND they are just arseholes.

And even if the person is ND they still have to be accountable for their actions. I see posts all the time along the lines of I don't see why I/my child/anyone should have to mask their behaviour. It's such a selfish way of looking at things. I am accommodating and sympathetic, and I do understand some of the difficulties and issues around being ND. But everyone else in the world also has issues, wants and needs.

For an example someone will post about children screaming and running around in a coffee shop and it ruining the experience. The replies will be "maybe they are ND, just imagine how difficult it is for the parents." And yes that maybe true but if you've decided to treat yourself to a coffee, which is ridiculously expensive, you have every right not to want to deal with someone else's children.

Another post that regularly comes up which i have a personal experience of is garden use. We had a neighbour a few years ago whose child would constantly scream in the garden from 7am until 8pm. It made wfh during lockdown incredibly difficult as all of our rooms except the kitchen and bathroom faced towards their garden. We couldn't have windows open or sit in the garden due to the constant noise. Was the child ND? Quite possibly and I have sympathy for the parents. But at the same time I should be able to enjoy my own home and garden.

Ultimately there just needs to be balance. Everyone has to share spaces and work together.

Tbh, it sounds like a parent problem in those posts. The parents could take the child away to calm down if it's a meltdown or take them inside the house if they are screaming. A child learns from it's parents.