to not understand MNers against neurodiversity

But it's not black and white, it's literally a spectrum. You can be a little autistic, or you can be a lot autistic

Don't worry most people understand exactly that. Im not sure why i shouldn't say I'm ND as shorthand when I've got at least 3 distinct ND conditions. (All diagnosed, not just labels ... Go me)

Mumsnet on the whole is very intolerant of disabled people but especially those with SEN/ND. The SN children's board has to be hidden away because of the attitude of a large number of people on here towards children with SEN.

Maybe that’s why I have always been able to tackle every situation with no worries as an adult, because I was chucked into so many situations as a child that were so uncomfortable to me 😅

Every cloud and all that!

Being ND isn't diagnosable: it's an umbrella term.

yes you can have traits of something.
like you can have symptoms of an illness
but if you dont hit the criteria you dont hit the criteria.
so he's not 'a little bit autistic'

I agree up to a point. Of course we all should be taught to take responsibility for our own actions, consider others, try to contribute to society etc.

I suppose my caveat would be that adults have vastly more autonomy than children.
As an adult I can chose environments and situations I find less overwhelming and that align with my needs.

My options for potential jobs include WFH, flexitime, being self-employed, something focusing on my specialist interest, something very high/low in novelty and change, something low/high in sensory input or movement etc. I can make decisions that allow me to function well.

Children are largely just expected to be in the school system and to fit into that with all of its rigidity.
School is a specific shape that kids have to fit into the thrive and I think in that way school is a very different experience to adult life.

If I don't like my job as an adult I just move jobs. It might time a bit of time but I can make it happen.

Allowing some adaptations and autonomy during school mimics adult life more closely than not.

I hate to nitpick, but neurodivergence also isn't a diagnosis. You can't be "diagnosed ND". You can be diagnosed with a neurodevelopmental condition. But "neurodivergent" is an identity, not a medical diagnosis.

It's a totally valid way to describe yourself or someone else who doesn't fit the neurological norms, as it were, formally diagnosed or not. It's also a useful shorthand for those of us who have a few different spices in the rack. But it is not, to be clear, something you can be medically diagnosed as/with.

I am diagnosed ND.

I do see too much “maybe it’s autism” on mumsnet, when there’s no actual evidence to suggest autism, and plenty of evidence to suggest the (usually male partner) is just a bit of a jerk.

It cheapens actually diagnosed people, and allows for some shitty behaviour from adults that really should know better, and tars people with actual ND with the same brush.

It's quite funny to see that you describe yourself as diagnosed but everyone else has a "label". Like you think your experiences are more valid than theirs.

You're right that you need more than a couple of symptoms to be actually diagnosed Nd.

However, I do believe that everyone actually has some symptoms of Nd. There is no such thing as a perfectly 'normal' brain. I recognise some of my own traits in the list of signs of autism (milder versions, true, but still recognisable), but I don't think I'm autistic.

For example, I lose track of time just like you describe. When I'm focused on something, hours could go by and I don't notice. If I mentioned that in a post, some might rush to suggest I'm Nd. However, I can turn up on time when necessary and it doesn't interfere with my every day life and work, so clearly it actually doesn't fit an Nd diagnosis.

Rushing to suggest Nd as soon as a poster mentions one possible symptom is not helpful. It's much more likely that they are NT but struggle with one or two things, like we all do.

A quick snapshot like we get on MN is nowhere near enough to tell if someone is Nd out not. Best to leave diagnosing to professionals.

This. 👍

I see it from both sides.

There's older (undiagnosed) relatives who say "That's not ND, that's normal, I also do that!" You can blame them for the ND gene you've inherited. And people who suspect that it's an imaginary concept being used to "get one over" on decent, hardworking people like themselves and say they "didn't have all this autism and ADHD" in their day, forgetting all the autism and ADHD people clearly did have and suffered for in their day.

There's people who are afraid, I think, that too many people are getting diagnoses and this will lead to them not being taken seriously and not getting the support that they need to succeed.

This becomes nasty when it becomes "my ND is worse/different than your ND therefore you're a liar/lazy" or ignores that getting a diagnosis is often a matter of having the privilege to go private or having support to jump through the hoops that the NHS forces you to jump through to get one, which are, ironically, set up so an ND person will really struggle with them.

Then you have a proliferation of increasingly ridiculous TikTok videos claiming they can diagnose you with ADHD, "Did you know that if you sometimes feel tired and other days find it hard to sleep, that means you have ADHD?" or autism, "Have you ever felt awkward in a social situation? Congrats, you are autistic!"

And finally, the people who cannot accept that some children are undisciplined and naughty and seek an ND explanation for any bad behaviour rather than a consequence, which is getting old now.

@Jifmicroliquid it's great that you were able to to navigate in the NT world with some success and understandable that you think ND DC might receive help and support in school that will not be available when they leave school.

But spare a thought for those of us who did not cope without appropriate support who in the absence of greater understanding of ND were labelled as naughty or stupid or were labelled as neurotic or depressed or even diagnosed (?labelled) as as psychotic, schizophrenic, bipolar etc or whose disregulated food and sensory issues led to diagnosis of eating disorders.

We would have benefitted from greater awareness at school. And at work or better awareness of why we were unable to work without appropriate support.

Well said @CrazyGoatLady
I have to say, a lot can be laid at the door of "parent support groups". Your child is struggling, they are having behavioural support issues, parents are nervous of being labelled bad parents so the first person who comes along and says "I bet your child has autism" or "that looks like PDA, my son has it", the original parent is hugely relieved that there's an explanation other than "you could improve your parenting".
But of course that parent either a) only knows their own diagnosed child(ren) or may have self-diagnosed their child.

As someone I know put it, we aren't saying you are awful parents, just like we aren't saying you are awful parents if your child has a bit of an unbalanced diet and got ill from it. You just need to get some tips on how to return the balance to be normal, and possibly a bit of a boost rather like your child might need a vitamin supplement if they've been refusing to eat fruit and veg.

Agree with this and I'm ND.

I was trained to do autism and ADHD assessment in a former role. There's a lot involved in doing it properly. I'm not saying that laypeople can't spot patterns or traits, and ND people can be better at that sometimes than some professionals I've met, because we live it. Most people who do suggest it are trying to help/speaking from their own experience and do have good intentions. Especially for those of us who went through the challenges of not being identified/diagnosed and only realised as adults that we'd been playing life on extra hard mode all along.

But.

Sometimes it's a go to thing on forums when people really don't have the full picture. It can lead parents to false hope that they will get an explanation or a diagnosis, when actually that's not what's needed, or at least not to start with, and professionals will usually want to try other interventions first if there are behavioural issues before reaching for a diagnosis. It's very difficult as a professional to work with a family when they already have a fixed idea from other sources of what their child's issue is and aren't open to anything else.

Sometimes behaviour that is within the normal boundaries of what might be expected for age and stage is pathologized on here. I've even seen someone suggest on a thread on here that a five year old who was acting out had a personality disorder and that's something no professional would ever suggest, in fact if they did in my line of work it would be considered highly unethical.

It's double edged. It usually is done with good intentions, but can have unintended consequences. I absolutely have seen some grim ableist stuff on here, but I wouldn't equate that sort of anti-ND ableism with being hesitant about the appropriateness of diagnosis via internet forum.

I don't think that labelling people ND is always helpful or wanted. I have never been diagnosed as ND, but reading all of these forums I have plenty of "ND" traits.
I also have a full time career, 2 masters degrees, 2 children, a happy home and marriage and a few close friends.
Having a label stuck on me as ND growing up because of social awkwardness, shyness, difficulty with eye contact etc etc would have done me zero favours. Instead my parents and teachers pushed me out of my comfort zone which enabled me to succeed in life.
I acknowledge that I find certain things difficult, but accept it as part of my personality rather than as a medical diagnosis and I would find it offensive if someone suggested that I should get a formal diagnosis.
I accept that some people need to have a diagnosis of ND to get the support they need, but many people don't and can function perfectly well in the world without a label.

You say you struggle daily.

I know people who admit they don't struggle at all, don't find the world confusing as you describe, don't feel like they're from a different planet, have no issues or real difficulties - but still have people suggesting they "must" still be ND because they are a bit shy/quiet, or talk quickly, or felt nervous before a presentation, or have an ND child and "it's genetic, you know, they must have 'got it' from you". And they can't argue back as this random person/their relative is ND so they don't want to offend them, but this random is happy to talk as if they understand them more than they understand themselves.

So according to some, people "don't understand the struggle", but then also there's no need to struggle to get a diagnosis as a few tiny traits will do? (actually there is - it has to have a real impact on your life, but who cares about that when Laura from the school run can diagnose you and your whole family at ten paces?)

I'd actually say that lax/inappropriate parenting and too much screen time could cause much poorer behaviour in a child who already had e.g. ADHD.

Evidence and data?

I think that the problem is that may people these days justify bad behaviour in their kids with a likely self-diagnosed neurodiversity whereas a lot of it is probably caused by lax upbringing, uncontrolled access to social media and generally poor parenting.

I have Tourette’s Syndrome, a narcissistic mother and a degree in psychology but I’ve learnt to keep quiet when I recognise traits of ND or narcissistic relatives in the posts here! I definitely know how to recognise the signs but there is always going to be somebody going “oh you’re just jumping on the bandwagon”. Unfortunately, as there is more awareness and support out there, there are going to be people in the public eye who cry wolf with MH issues to excise their shitty behaviour when they get caught out (hello Huw Edwards and Egg Wallace). Then they give a bad name to people who are getting a late diagnosis or have hidden their condition for decades, because it’s only now being recognised. I guess it’s a bit like the MeToo thing - it’s great that genuine victims finally have a voice but there will always be a few dickheads who use it to their advantage, and then that sheds doubt on the real ones. On top of that, there is a certain type of person on MN who sees everything in black and white and can’t understand things they haven’t experienced themselves. Anyway, I’m glad you got your diagnosis and that it’s helping you. I got diagnosed in my 40s and, like you, it helped to explain why I find life such a struggle and to develop coping mechanisms.

"MN is a bit schizophrenic on this issue.*

Now that is offensive.

I'm diagnosed with Asperger's and have two ASD sons.

It's complicated isn't it? There are so many different personality types amongst the autistic community. Everyone - autistic or neurotypical - has a different level of knowledge on the subject, different assumptions and they can only see things from their own perspective. Therefore, a lot of people say a lot of annoying things about neurodiversity.

The thing that most annoys me is that someone will describe someone who's clearly a horrid, abusive or violent person and people will suggest neurodiversity. Like the 'strange gym person' thread I read earlier. I suppose sociopathy/narcissism is a form of neurodiversity but that isn't what people are talking about I don't think.

I'm also of the opinion that people can be a little bit on the spectrum....I have a few friends who probably wouldn't be diagnosed but they have a lot in common with me. I believe there's a spectrum for every single personality trait and how many of those traits need to be extreme, and the cut-off point of each for an autism diagnosis is arbitrary. I also think that classifying so many people as ASD has complicated things and there should be more varying diagnoses. Autistic people tend to have 'spiky' profiles so we can be at opposite ends of the spectrum for various traits, thus making it ridiculous to give us the same diagnosis.

To the PPs saying some people are being called ND when they are just arseholes, you can be both ND and an arsehole. Being ND doesn’t give you license to be an arsehole, however. It should, however, be recognised that some aspects are a disability and you can’t just say ‘be better’ at xyz thing caused by the disability, just as you can’t tell a seeing impaired person to just ‘see better’ if they bump into you. However that doesn’t give the seeing impaired person license to just bulldoze their way through things because they can’t see, for example by saying it’s not their fault if they break loads of things in a china shop. They still need to take into consideration their disability and the fact they are in a place with loads of delicate objects placed precariously about.

If I don’t set multiple reminders and alarms for important things, I will definitely be late. I won’t mean to be but I will be. Therefore I take this into consideration with the ridiculous amount of reminders and timers. As a result I am almost never late, no more so than any other person. It may be a mad dash at the end but I don’t want to inconvenience people by making them wait, so I take into consideration my limitations and adjust accordingly.

There are some things which I cannot change no matter how much I may wish to. Foot-in-mouth syndrome is one, where I mean to say something positive or even neutral and it somehow comes out all wrong. People might say, ‘stop and think before you speak’, but the problem is I don’t realise what I’ve said was taken the wrong way until after I’ve said it. And it’s not really feasible to sit and think before replying or saying anything to someone, to that extent. So in this regard I hope people will have empathy and accept my apology that I didn’t mean whatever thing in that way.

Another example is if I’m overwhelmed, and there is a sign clearly stating ‘DO NOT DO X THING’. Invariably I will not even see the sign and then do X thing. It’s like it doesn’t even exist to me. On a flight I wanted to use the toilet. I saw a door that looked like the toilets and was in the right general location, and tried to open it. It wouldn’t open. The toilet sign earlier had read vacant, so I was confused. Then a flight attendant politely pointed me to the correct door, which is only then when I noticed the door I was trying to open clearly said FLIGHT CREW ONLY with a keypad to enter a code to unlock the door. I completely missed all of this due to being overloaded with too much going on with the flight and all of the run up to the flight. I do this so often with so many things.