to not understand MNers against neurodiversity

I think that many children with severe asd are waiting too long for diagnosis because the system is struggling to cope with the number of referrals. Many problems with a child trigger a questionnaire and potentially a referral for neurodiversity diagnosis.

What do you call a person who has a condition which is no different from people without the condition?

A person who is just normal no condition.

A disease etc is largely defined by it's effects which are definable and seperable from those who don't have the condition. For example, if you have no flu symptoms, you don't have flu - even if you are a carrier of the flu virus in your body.If person a is not neurodiverse, and person bi is the same as person a in relevant measures - it is meaningless to call one nd and one not.

The problem is everyone is diagnosed with something now... said it before - when everyone is special, no one is special.

That's not true at all. Autism and associated conditions are on a spectrum; according to how a someone's symptoms manifest themselves, that person will be 'somewhere on the spectrum'. It's certainly not as simple as autistic vs not autistic.

There are people out there who loved looking down on people we now know to have ND as “weird” or “not coping”, or even just as less able and successful than themselves. They revelled in feeling better than others.

Now that we are becoming more aware of ND and seeking to make reasonable adjustments this sort of person HATES it, as they are now losing their advantage over ND people. Attempts to level the playing field mean that NT people lose their inherent advantage at life, and there is a type of person who hates that.

They will minimise and say “oh surely everyone feels like that sometimes”, or claim “oh the world and his dog are ND these days” with an eye roll. They may even claim that ND children and adults are now getting an advantage- in the same way as men sometimes claim women have an advantage when in fact we aren’t even anywhere near parity. Because effort is being made to close an unfair gap, those who used to profit from the unfairness don’t like it.

This in't actually true, people question lots of diagnoses. Usually they are things where the diagnostic criteria or origins of the disease or tests are not all that clear, are poorly established, or in some other ways raise questions.

I once read a meme asking: Why do people insist it takes years for a qualified professional to diagnose you as ND, when the playground bullies can identify you in 30 seconds?

@CrazyGoatLady That is the best explanation of this kind of thing, and although I posted in support of the "other side" - I totally agree with you.

The terms and openness and discussion about these things are helpful tools for communication and mutual understanding - it is a problem when they get used as a weapon or shield.

At the same time, I think it's important to recognise (and I can see that you do) that many people dealing with ND whether in themselves or their child(ren) are not magically able to fix all of the problems related to the ND the minute they get the diagnosis, or often, fully, ever.

I do think there is a tone of expectation on these threads from some posters that if you find out you have ADHD or whatever then, well, get medication and you'll be cured! It doesn't work like that - medication is only ever going to alleviate some symptoms, not make everything go away and it can take time and experimentation to work out what is the right medication and balance side effects etc. Not to mention the fact it isn't active in your system 24/7 or you would never be able to sleep. And it can get disrupted by ordinary things like your hormonal cycle or a cold or a bad sleep patch.

Or OK - well now you know about time blindness you can simply not be blind to time any more and find some magic perfect strategy to combat it and never be late or lose track of time ever again! - ??? - I mean, yes, I am significantly better at managing time than I was before diagnosis/treatment/doing a ridiculous amount of reading/learning. But I still have the same difficulty with it.

I was diagnosed in 2016 and I'm still learning and putting into place coping strategies and there are still ways I definitely feel impaired by ADHD, but it's not like I'm just sitting back going "Ah well, won't bother to fix that one, can't help it!" but I also can't work on everything at once and nothing is a quick fix, it takes a lot of effort and time and experimentation to change habits and learnt behaviours which have been there my whole life.

So communication helps IME.

Unfortunately yes, as a now former CAMHS professional, and parent of ND teens, there are some parents who are like this. And as you say, there's some who are just exhausted and can't do more than "survival parenting" and it's just too much to do AutPlay or coping strategies or do anything beyond the basics. As professionals we have to understand what is behind what may look like resistance before labelling families resistant.

Many of the neurodiversity movement's current cohort of influencers are toxic. Some of them seem to demand all kinds of special treatment and claim not to be able to do basic shit that they've been doing since they were kids after having a diagnosis for all of five minutes. ND excuses every single flaw they have or thing they aren't good at. They weaponise RSD and call people ableist if they are ever called out for any BS, saying how they all have such terrible imposter syndrome and feel so bad about themselves really, and they're so introverted and socially anxious they need to post sad selfies on a daily basis for sympathy and likes. They give the rest of us who have just been trying to get on with it as best we can and had to fight for even the smallest reasonable adjustments a bad name.

I'm increasingly seeing this same crap in the younger staff in my workplace, no doubt because they consume the narcissistic crap these influencers peddle, and/or had parents who didn't think they should have to learn any life skills. Can't deal with the gentlest of constructive feedback because they're ND and have RSD. Can't request annual leave via a system and wait for a decision because it triggers "demand avoidance" or anxiety. Can't be on time for anything because time blindness. Resilience and perseverance is "toxic positivity" or oppression. Adhering to the most basic of social norms that help people live alongside each other in communities harmoniously is ableism.

I'm absolutely here for making the world more accessible, understanding and accommodating difference (while still maintaining a level of community cohesion) recognising where we need more equitable systems and treatment, and actually better universal design with accessibility built in is good for everyone. But this self obsessed, commodified insta/TikTok version of neurodiversity can fuck right off.

I think this article series is very interesting https://www.madintheuk.com/2024/12/part-1-neurodiversity-what-exactly-does-it-mean/

If someone's behaviour impacts another then 'it's OK they are ND' is not an excuse and victims should not have to put up with it

I don't eat fries which touched ketchup befire I wanted them to in a way I wanted them to. Well I do now I am adult and don't like wasting food, but begrudgingly.
Am I autistic?

I think this is a little unfair on this poster.
I am diagnosed with autism. You wouldn’t know if you met me. I have a degree and a post grad degree, several other recognised qualifications in various things. I was a teacher for many years. I have a lot of friends and am sociable and chatty. I have had relationships, though choose not to now for other reasons.

I believe I have been this successful at managing my autism because I was treated as any other child growing up. I wasn’t given any special treatment or freedoms passes. I was expected to conform and I learnt to manage in the world with my difficulties. I adopted strategies to help myself and I studied how people interacted and how the world works.
This is why I am so passionate about it because I don’t believe I would be the person I am today if I’d been treated differently from others growing up.
People ask me if I could go back in time and have my Autism recognised as a child, would I. My answer is no, because I don’t think it would have helped me. In fact, I think I could have turned out to be a very different person if that had happened, and I don’t think that person would be half as happy and content as I am today.

The problem is that a lot of posts suggesting ND also suggest that therefore the OP is wrong to take issue with that person's behaviour. It can be - and I've seen it - be presented as a get out of jail free card.But if the behaviour is selfish or unpleasant to be around that doesn't mean everyone has to suck it up.

I would also like to see 'undiagnosed ND' being used very much less often. Gregg Wallace is saying that his horribly inappropriate jokes, rubbing his crotch against female contestants, telling someone he's only just met about his sex life, is due to his undiagnosed autism. Well that makes it all alright then does it?

And the two are linked. ND can be used by people themselves or others to rush to a diagnosis precisely because there is a much greater awareness of diversity. Sometimes the ND can be a genuine reason. But it can also be used as an excuse to be an arsehole. And that's where MN has the problem with armchair diagnostics.

@SquirrelSoShiny

Well said 👏

I can see both sides of this. I'm late diagnosed ND myself and have ND kids. I feel passionately that it's best for mental health if you are MD to know and understand it. So I do suggest ND on lots of threads. I do find it offensive when people make their comments that it's trendy these days or I get comments like "you don't look/act autistic" or because I have a degree people think I can't possibly be ND as they think it's linked to intelligence etc. Although saying that I also don't approve of self id into ND, if you are in a waiting list that's one thing but if you have no intention of getting diagnosed don't claim the label because there are people who think it's trendy and want to feel special with the special label we can't deny these people exist.

I'm fairly sure my kids dad is ND. He was abusive. ND is no excuse for abuse, it may be a reason they struggle with being abusive/controlling but it's never an excuse. I've fought for my sons diagnosis and to get him support and now some support is in place I find his behaviour is too frequently excused by professionals because he is ND. Yes I want allowances made for him in many areas, and he needs care and education from people who understand him to try to keep him from struggling but he has violent and challenging behaviour when he's struggling and I want to hold a firm boundary that this is unacceptable. One day he will be an adult and if he behaves this way he will be in prison or sectioned. If he continues to be as controlling as he can be now he will be an abusive partner and that's not acceptable. When I see abuse excused on here because the perpetrator sounds ND and women advised to cut them some slack and suffer my blood boils. You cut them some slack for needing routine or for not being able to listen to you with the tv on, you cut them some slack when they don't ask how you are because it doesn't occur to them. You do not cut them some slack when they are controlling your life or shouting or intimidating you. You do not cut them full slack for being a crap parent leaving it all to you, that one is hard and takes working together to come up with plans amend tactics but it's never an excuse to leave everything up to the mother

In telling someone they are neurodiverse, you are telling them they are not neurotypical and therefore something is not “typical” with their brain, or, in other words, that there is something “wrong” with it. This isn’t my view, which is why I’ve used inverted commas around “wrong” for the rest of my posts. I have phrased it like this to highlight that an unrequested diagnosis from a stranger will likely be perceived as a criticism by the recipient, which is one of many reasons I don’t think people should attempt to diagnose at random.

No, I’m not being rude, as I would not comment on anyone in this way as I am not a professional and as I have said many many times on this thread, it is rude and invasive to comment on whether other people are neurodiverse, neurotypical or somewhere in between.

I am not commenting on how able or unable people with autism and/or ADHD are as everyone is completely different!

If you wish to reply to me please quote me so I can actually see it!

Yeah sure that's exactly it 🙄

What I'm seeing is a % of parents of ND children who SHOULD be saying 'You find [x] difficult so let's find some strategies for managing this. You're hyperfocusing on the sound of Johnny breathing because you're feeling anxious and overwhelmed. Shall we look at some strategies for managing difficult emotions like anxiety and anger?Shall we look at some ways of redirecting your hyperfocus? Let's take a time out and figure out a plan.'

Instead some are saying 'My teenage child has autism / ADHD! They can't HELP it! How DARE you ask me to work proactively and collaboratively to find strategies to manage this! Of course he's going to hit the boy beside him for breathing too loudly! He can't HELP it! Are you STUPID? Don't you know he's got autism / ADHD? It's not HIS fault everyone in the world is annoying! No, he won't learn the strategies you're teaching him! How DARE you try to teach him to manage his hypersensitivity! It's not up to him to learn anything! It's up to the world to ACCOMMODATE him! Why don't they just HOLD THEIR BREATH to avoid upsetting him! Send everyone else outside!'

Happily they are a minority these parents and children BUT they cause disproportionate harm to everyone around them, especially other ND people. Because bluntly they are so profoundly unpleasant in their interactions that eventually they burn every bridge and end up very alone. They also tar every ND person with the same brush. People hear autism or ADHD and they recoil.

Any professional in these fields will tell you (off record) they are seeing the same. We're not here to placate our ND children. We're here to help them grow and find ways to thrive in the world. And it is relentless and exhausting and a percentage have such significant learning difficulties that learning anything is a challenge but this is not the case for all. Some parents are just too bloody exhausted to do anything other than survival parenting. This is why we need to collectively lobby for better support services.

I actually see a weird parallel with this thread (and similar ones) and the "MNers are too quick to cry LTB!!" threads.

The arguments seem to be the same - and honestly I think the conclusion (from my side at least) is the same too.

I don't think anyone ever has decided that their child has ADHD/autism/etc or sought an assessment for such things based on comments on a MN thread alone. If comments on MN are one part of an overall picture that caused them to go and seek out an assessment, then that is what they were. And at least IME, sometimes MN is the only place where people will outright come out and say "Have you ever considered...?"

And so no, I don't find it particularly surprising when people suggest ADHD/autism and the poster says "Well yes I have wondered about this but <insert common misconception here> so probably not".

Cards on the table here - I did LTB, 15 years ago in fact, which MN was supportive of and which was absolutely the right decision. I have one child diagnosed with ADHD, that MN never really picked up on, although he is a teenager now - or perhaps I wasn't in that headspace, because I don't remember reading comments like that, despite posting about him a LOT ~10-15 years ago, because I was really struggling. And one child in assessment for both ADHD and autism (MNers picked up on this, though I haven't posted much about him). I am also diagnosed ADHD myself, thanks in part to comments on MN although perhaps thankfully, the one that made me seriously consider it was not on my own thread so I didn't need to endure the back and forth bickering about whether or not it was a reasonable suggestion or whether I was just lazy

And I have also had occasional comments suggesting that my DH may be abusive/manipulative (which he is 100% not ) and that I may be autistic which I am pretty confident I am not. I also remember it being suggested at least once, maybe twice that DS1 (despite the ADHD never really being picked up on!) was PDA, which I was sceptical about at the time and now he is older I'm certain he is not and has never been PDA.

And perhaps controversial - the ex who I left 15 years ago was roundly "diagnosed" by MN as having NPD. I now find this quite unlikely, but it was helpful to me in terms of helping me emotionally detach from the relationship, which was extremely harmful regardless of whether or not my ex has any personality disorders. Since I never told him of my suspicion or anybody else, it caused no harm in the real world.

Point being - I think it's really OK to have these things suggested, whether they turn out to be relevant, or not. I also don't think "Have you ever thought about X" or "This sounds a bit like it could possibly be Y" is diagnosing someone over the internet. It's not like posters are saying "Oh yes OP definitely ADHD, you should start him on caffeine immediately!" I should think anyone suggesting that would be rounded upon and quite rightly.

There is this idea that autism/ADHD/etc are really rare so suggesting it to people online is like hearing hooves and thinking zebra rather than horse. But actually they are very common - about 1-2.5% is thought to be the prevalence of autism and around 3-5% is thought to be the prevalence of ADHD (with some overlap between those). So it is worth thinking about, the same that for example difficulty in learning to read and write is worth considering possible dyslexia.

She probably thinks you can just ask a child nicely to stop being autistic and not to have any inconvenient needs or behaviours.

Really how does that manifest then?

This.

It's particularly harmful raising children to believe that ND is a free pass to be a selfish, self-absorbed narcissist. This I'm sadly seeing more and more.

But it's not black and white, it's literally a spectrum. You can be a little autistic, or you can be a lot autistic

That would be a scale, not a spectrum (literally or otherwise).

But it's not black and white, it's literally a spectrum. You can be a little autistic, or you can be a lot autistic

Tell me you don't know how the autistic spectrum works without telling me you don't know how the autistic spectrum works

You wouldn’t get a diagnosis because traits need to significantly impact life. You have a successful career,happy home life and relationships.

No you’re not some superior coping being but somebody who does not have autism.