to not understand MNers against neurodiversity

But the physically disabled have rights to ensure they can access education, buildings,meetings, hospitals,work….

Autistic people should just stay at home. 😱

Thank you for demonstrating my point so effectively, @ChristmasGrump5.

FYI, "ASD is defined by a deficit in social communication along with the presence of repetitive and/or restricted interests and/or behaviors."

Masking shouldn't be pushed, I agree. For one thing, more than half of people with autism can't do it at all. Many of the rest are so bad at it, they may as well not waste the mental energy.

This means, however, that people with ASDs who won't or can't mask must accept they're unable to participate fully in most activities requiring social skills.

It's directly equivalent to my mobility impairments, which leave me unable to join in walking activities or visit interesting old churches with lots of steps.

It's shit, but there it is. If you have a disability, you have to figure out how to muddle along with it - some concessions can be made by the wider world, but it's not all going to change to suit any one person's wish; nor should it.

there is a criteria for a condition. if you meet it you have it
if you dont meet it you dont have it
there is no such things as ' a little bit autistic'

so many people can hold traits of autism but it does not mean they are autistic

its like saying a sprain is 'a little bit of a broken ankle' just because they share some traits.

im well aware there isn't a blood test for it.
which is why there is a criteria for it.
you either meet it or you dont

meets some criteria does not mean 'a little bit autistic' it means meets some of the criteria, a lot of people meet 'some of the criteria'

you are either autistic or youre not.
you either have a condition or you dont.

yes but you are either diagnosed as autistic or youre not

Autism is not a social disability

Autism spectrum disorder (ASD) is a developmental disability caused by differences in the brain. People with ASD often have problems with social communication and interaction, and restricted or repetitive behaviors or interests.

Some people manage to mask successfully and don’t have social issues. Masking shouldn’t be pushed however as it can cause big MH difficulties.

And as for “ If more of you grasped this basic point, you wouldn't keep pissing people off by trying to label arseholes as autistic and/or telling NT people not to communicate the way they do. Thank god some of you do get it!”

So patronising and rude,I for one am so not going to be lectured by somebody who doesn’t even have ND.

This is really important, Perzival. 50% of people currently diagnosed with autism are unable to manage without full-time care or hold down a paying job. Their far higher needs have been "cancelled" by autism advocacy that focuses purely on making wider society more comfortable for ND people with fewer needs.

At an autism conference last year (I think), the autistic advocates were furious at a speaker who talked about the silent half, demanding apologies for having acknowledged their existence! Several stormed out, then spend days trashing the speaker on TwitX. The ND people with high needs were not there, of course, to defend their corner.

I really hope the initiative described in your screenshot will go some way to redress this imbalance.

I recently got diagnosed with autism. I’m mid forties. The damage caused by going through life without support has been lasting and profound. I was labelled awkward, rude, naughty, and lazy as a child. Then repeatedly punished. Whilst I have intact IQ and ability to talk I do struggle with working memory, executive function, motor skills reading social cues and a whole array of cognitive impairments that are not realities to reasoning or talking, but still cause problems in engaging with school, work and other people. In fact I dropped out of university as I had liver failure due to a suicide attempt and it nearly killed me. I have not coped with jobs and have spent my life unemployed with severe mental health problems.
Today I would be one of those kids in mainstream schools with a diagnosis and support, wickedly stealing care from those who can’t talk. Or perhaps it is the government who are wicked cutting services for ALL levels of autism?

Im sorry to hear you have struggled. May I ask what reasonable adjustments you have found helpful? Is this in work life?

I'm only halfway through the thread and can see there are already lots of replies from fully-informed people with nuanced views. So I'll keep this short!

The leap to "ND" for all and any bad behaviours pisses me off no end. Amongst other things, it carries the assumption that ND people are rude, selfish, difficult people to be around. Plenty of you aren't.

This assumption comes with a large serving of "they can't help it, it's ND" meaning everyone else should just suck it up. They won't. The general public is under no obligation to suffer rudeness or, indeed, to give a shit about the rude person's reasons for acting like a twat.

Finally, the reason you get a diagnosis and special accommodations is that you have a disability. You have a social disability; it's a fundamental requirement for diagnosis. This automatically means your opinions on other people's social behaviours are likely to be impaired and you are poorly equipped to analyse NT people's interactions with you or anyone else. If more of you grasped this basic point, you wouldn't keep pissing people off by trying to label arseholes as autistic and/or telling NT people not to communicate the way they do.

Thank god some of you do get it!

You know, I wonder if some of this "but she/he is ND" being shouted is being misconstrued.

Difficult without a specific example. But I've seen it fairly often where a parent has said to school etc these are DC's needs, school say oh yes, very good very good, they pay lip service to them and then whether it's poor communication or the chaos of the school environment, overworked teachers or outdated ideas about autism or whatever - the needs get totally forgotten and they start treating the child as though they don't have autism or an EHCP at all. Then the child becomes distressed and the unacceptable behaviours come back, and the parent is frustrated because what they see is the child being set up to fail. Whereas what the school see is the unacceptable behaviour and a parent "making an excuse".

I get that every teacher can't be an expert in every possible condition that a child might have but that's exactly why there is supposed to be paperwork and such. It's clearly not working, what would need to change in the current system for that kind of thing to work better?

I am sure if my child was profoundly affected I would want a quick way to signify it to people and I respect that view and I hope it happens for them.

I am nervous about this change happening because I think it will impact on my child. At the moment the terms covers a broad spectrum. Which I feel makes people engage with how does it affect your child as they know it's broad.

My son goes to a special school. He actually has 2 to 1 support and he won't do gcses but he can learn some things. He has the typical spiky profile basically.

People always talk as if you are either profound or in mainstream with some adjustments and high anxiety. I think separating it out again will definitely lead to people having expectations on him to be more like a specific presentation than he is.

I recognise its not all about us and I hope everyone gets what they need basically
I was just explaining how I can understand that different criteria or diagnoses can impact on others.

I don't think it's only the recognising, its the increased level of acceptance.
My brother started questioning if he was 'different' at about 11/12, and there was some talk about Aspergers being a possible option, but my parents were terrified that he would lose his private school scholarship if he was diagnosed as SEN, and this was actually the only thing which was helping him manage. He really struggled in a big mainstream primary but flourished in a small independent, and having a diagnosis at that point (late 1980's) could have done him more harm than good, due to attitudes to ND being much less accepting than they are now.

It’s not only on MN, nor is it only online. I see this in real life all the time. People are desperate to use clinical language to explain everything when most of them don’t know what it means

Do we not realise that if everyone is a ‘little bit ND’ then that actually means that it’s typical not diverse

The more watered down it becomes, the more pointless it is and the more people who badly need support and do actually fit criteria are let down.

This insta/tik tok version of ND is insane. People scrolling through SM shopping for a diagnosis for themselves are making a mockery of people who are actually suffering.

Sounds like you're spending too much time on MN.

I'm on the waiting list for an ND assessment, referred by my GP, who I approached on the advice of my psychotherapist. All my life, I've struggled at work, at school and with relationships. I work with clients with MH and ND issues, and I recognise so many behaviours in myself that I see in ND clients.

I also now recognise ND behaviours that my late father and at least one of his siblings had.

If I am ND, and had been diagnosed earlier in life, my life might have been very different. I might not have been fired from my well paid public sector job because of excessive sick leave which, with hindsight, may well have been down to autistic burnout. I could have sought adjustments which may have prevented it. I may have understood why I really struggle with some aspects of relationships and managed them better, or had more understanding from friends and partners, instead of being dismissed as being "weird" or "stroppy". And I may have been able to get the right sort of help in dealing with my history of trauma.

I think anything that helps people develop an understanding of how and why they struggle with stuff and thus develop strategies to cope better with them is a good thing, tbh. I don't get why anyone should resent or object to that.

Events aren’t simply distressing anymore, they’re traumatic.
Someone hasn’t fucked up because they are human, they must be a narcissist
You can’t have a falling out with your spouse without it being labelled as abusive
Your parents weren’t just trying to muddle through as best they could in their own, imperfect way. They were toxic and you have childhood trauma.

I am sick to the back teeth of it

My comment was in reply to someone who said that modern diagnostics and the widening of the net are the problem. The DSM being updated in 2022 supports my point that the more we learn about ND, the diagnostic criteria changes.

I have seen too many instances of but s/he's ND, including being shouted by the individual, to excuse loud, violent, anti social behaviour.

My DS8 has classic autism, diagnosed at 3. His presentation is pretty much loud, violent and anti-social, despite parents and specialist school working tirelessly with his communication issues. What you and other posters are saying is “this kind of ND is okay, but this other type over here is totally unacceptable” as though people get to choose their presentation from an autism menu. My DS autism cannot be “cured” by parenting or boundaries - any more than your, more socially-acceptable type can. God knows I’ve tried.

My post was in reply to someone who feels that more people being diagnosed with autism is a bad thing for fear of taking something away from the people most severely affected. I agree with you, my child being autistic shouldn't affect anyone else at all.

I want everyone with autism to be diagnosed if they want to be, and to have the support they need whatever that looks like. I don't see more people being diagnosed as a bad thing.

The latest DSM was published in 2022. Not decades ago

https://www.autismparentingmagazine.com/profound-autism-term/

https://www.ncsautism.org/blog//new-review-articleprofound-autism-an-imperative-diagnosis

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/inspectrum/202112/lancet-commission-calls-new-category-profound-autism

@ChristmasGrump5 a few more links but I'm sure you can search the subject yourself.

@Acrossthemountains

https://www.specialneedsjungle.com/language-matters-definition-send-shifting-should-worried/

I think this is a good read on the subject.

How can your child’s diagnosis impacts others who present differently? They have differing needs and services. And yes all children have a right to an education and the right treatment, healthcare and support. Reasonable adjustments are also not a luxury but a right.

Also I’d like to point out to others that many verbal ND people are severely impacted requiring several services and support (even supportive living) to keep alive.