to not understand MNers against neurodiversity

I wouldn't know how to feel other than neutral, they have every right to be there and I wish their companions / caregivers well

I've been discussing it with a friend who deals with discrimation law and she said the venue would need to show that it meets a proportionate means to a legitimate aim but how they'd do this is another matter as many people with autism don't like noise but those same people may make noise or stim or use repetitive language so it would be hard for the venue to not allow access to those people and so venues would be unlikely to persue it as it would leave them open to claims of discrimination.

Also it is different to say relaxed performances or performances with sign language etc as these performances don't exclude but include.

I also wouldn't likely take my ds to a quiet area if there was one but I will always back his right to be treated the same as everyone else and if he wanted to sit there I'd support him in that. Like X2boys has said my ds also doesn't like noise but he is extremely good at making it at times.

For your point to make any sense, it would have to be the case that the only noise you have a problem with is that which is made involuntarily by disabled people.

Id be embarrassed to admit that if it was me.

I struggle hugely with people's noises, involuntarily or otherwise. Id be less affected by an involuntary noise from a disabled person than i would be by someone's sweet packet rustling, or someone coughing or sniffing, because the disabled person can't help it. Shall i regard all other people who are making noises, eating, drinking, sniffing, laughing as preventing me from attending?

This, in spades!

You would seat them where best suits them aa I said it's highly unlikely i would take my son anyway ,but if I did although he's the noisiest person I know ironically he can't cope with other people,s involuntary noise 🤷‍♀️

But not allowing them to sit there if they choose to or if their carer chooses to is direct discrimination because of their disability. You've made the decision that they can't access that area and must sit elsewhere because of their disability. They have the same rights to be there as anyone else. If they choose that is another question.

Also a designated quiet zone wouldn't necessarily stop someone who makes involuntary noise attending as again they can't help the noise as it's part of their disability so couldn't be excluded on those grounds.

But you wouldn’t seat someone who makes involuntary noise in the quiet zone, your seat the person who can’t cope with involuntary noise in the quiet zone.

A lot of people simply don’t believe neurodivergence is a thing. They should come to my house for a weekend…

That's not what the poster was saying she was saying the person whose disabilities mean the make loud involuntary noises Haa the right not to be excluded as it's discrimination

I have a severely autistic non verbal teen who makes loud involuntarily noises it's highly unlikely i would take him to event like this anyway but he does have the right to attend
As do you ,it's not a simple solution

I haven't said that at all. I've just pointed out that the law doesn't allow people to be discriminated against because of their disability. Everyone has the same right of access.

Are you saying that you don't want people who because of their disability make noise that they can't help disturbing you?

Got it, so you only care about the rights of a very specific presentation and are happy for everyone else to be excluded,

Also a designated quiet zone wouldn't necessarily stop someone who makes involuntary noise attending as again they can't help the noise as it's part of their disability so couldn't be excluded on those grounds. They could even argue that the quiet helps them to calm and possibly make less noise. Whether someone would attend knowing that they would or the person they're looking after would is another thing but in this country they would have every right.

The issue is around equal access. Everyone has the right or choice to attend or not. You wouldn't be able to say for example I can attend only if that person or person like them doesn't attend as you would be excluding someone in this case on the basis of their disability. You have the same right to attend as they do.

If you wanted to you could request a reasonable adjustment but I don't think requesting that other people don't attend would be reasonable. You could maybe ask for a private screening or performance but obviously that would come with a high additional cost which the theatre or cinema couldn't reasonably be expected to subsidise.

But someone who can’t cope with that also has a right to attend the event, don’t they? So putting them in a position where they have to leave is also discrimination.

I’m not just talking about myself here; I’m competent enough to insist the venue provides me with an alternative and could cope with a seat move - a colleague of mine has a profoundly autistic DC who would be very distressed by others making involuntary noise.

As I said - nobody ever thinks about what happens when there are genuinely conflicting needs, and they should. (Could easily be addressed in this case by having. designated quiet zones)

Honestly, I think they'd offer you other seats if available and that's it. Someone who makes involuntary noise has as much right to attend an event, use transport, goto the cinema etc as anyone else. It would be discrimination to ask the person making the noise to be quiet, to move seats or to leave. It says as much in the policy listed above.

Well said

Oh look another “autism whisperer” who seems unable to comprehend that their/their DC’s neurodivergence is not exactly the same as someone else’s.

My type of ND = a fabulous genetic quirk <preens>

Other people’s ND = likely the result of poor parenting, more effort required, no boundaries, etc.

Autistic presentation is variable. In some cases it presents as poor impulse control, disruptiveness, lashing out, etc - all indicators of needs not being met. All examples of “bad behaviour” too, but it is wrong to assume the autistic person is consciously not choosing the path of sanctimonious righteousness.

I think we need to update the “if you’ve met one autistic person…” phrase to “if you ARE one autistic person”. Being ND does not make you some kind of savant who speaks for everyone on the spectrum. Lots of these “badly behaved” kids are struggling, and need acceptance, adjustments and understanding as much as the “more deserving/less autistic” folk.

Alternatively, I’d give you an hour alone with my PDA DS, which you might find quite illuminating.

I wonder how they would manage it if someone like me had a seat next to someone making involuntary noise? Because I’d have to leave due to my own disability (I obviously wouldn’t even try a relaxed performance!)

I think it’s great that they are inclusive towards people with disabilities making involuntary noise. But nobody ever seems to consider the issue of conflicting needs in any inclusivity policy.

@drspouse that does sound like an awful experience and I hope you and your ds was OK afterwards.

That's what I'm kind of getting at. If a verbal teen or adult who is holding it together suddenly has behaviours or vocalisation I would think people would be less accepting than if an obviously severly impacted person did but there are people who I think would probably want all disabled people segregated as well.

I think this may follow through in education some what that people are more understanding of those who are severly impacted than those who are "high functioning" (using the term because I need to try to get the point across not to insult etc).

Because forgetting to turn the light off once isnt ADHD.
Its more than a fucking quirk... it affects EVERY aspect of your life.
It IS fucking exhausting.
And if its a late diagnosis its like suddenly everything makes sense for the first time ever.
Its not an excuse... its a reason. Yes.. you can make adjustments to a certain extent but even that doesn't work all the time.
Its how the brain is 'hard-wired' and trying harder just doesn't work. If it did- there'd be no lifetime of struggle would there?

Pic

https://www.blackpoolgrand.co.uk/policies/involuntary-noise-policy

https://derbytheatre.co.uk/our-policies/during-a-performance/

I found this on ATG (pic) we've booked directly with theatre's in ATG and have had really positive experiences with the help they've provided so ds can attend. I think it helps that we pre-empt and they know in advance as well rather than just turning up.

I'll try to find a better one to link. I'm sure if you just search involuntary noise policy one should come up. They usually state that it's unlawful due to discrimination law to ask the person to leave.

I can't see that policy but it would be helpful to have a look at them.

We were at a theatre in the region (neither of those but also NW) when my DS had three fits during the show - two while sitting in his seat but we took him out as soon as we could - all were noisy. Our neighbours side/front/back were very understanding but I can't help feeling they wouldn't be as understanding if it were a stim type of noise rather than a fit, or blurting out due to ADHD-related impulsivity. We always book on the end of a row (primarily for toilet related reasons but it helps with fidgety child who needs to get up, and we have fewer neighbours that way).

Thank you for being honest. I was wondering if people who are more obviously disabled by autism/ nd are viewed in the same way as those who are maybe verbal etc where behaviour are seen.

To answer your question about theatres, most have an involuntary noise policy. So if the person can't help making the noise they won't ask them to leave. I'll link one at the bottom of this post, they're all very similar, some aren't openly published.

We find that if we contact the theatre in advance where there isn't a relaxed show or a relaxed show that we can go to the theatre will offer us a box so we're away from others but they usually have to check with the company performing first. They won't ask anyone to leave or move because they make noise or movements associated with their disability because this would be direct discrimination. That said we do everything we can to mitigate and ensure we don't impact others. Many of the policies state that it isn't an acceptable reasons to offer a refund if someone makes a complaint.

There should be a link to Blackpool Grand's and a pic of Salford's Lowry.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.blackpoolgrand.co.uk/app/uploads/2024/03/Involuntary-Noise-Policy.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiOgdC1orGKAxX5QkEAHR2cHA4QFnoECCYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3Ndv8BxKvzcSOIPcWrmuXA