To think there are always missed red flags early on in eventual abusive relationships?

My deceased husband love bombed me from the very beginning and I was vulnerable and quite isolated at the time so didn't appreciate the danger. He arranged my mobile phone contracts right through from the set up so has the passwords etc.He wanted to know my work schedule and pre mobile phone usage he would often have phoned ahead to my work appointment leaving a message or requesting a call back .He stole from me and controlled my finances.Eventually I got control back but this went on for decades.
When our oldest child was born he requested that no one but us were allowed to change her nappy.She was a much loved first granddaughter and her nappy was changed by an adoring aunt in the first few days.He said he knew by my face that I had let him down.
All bizarre stuff but so difficult to escape from.
The ultimate release has been his untimely death and that has also trapped me in a widow role because I don't acknowledge his coercive control to anyone.

No I don’t agree. I think that abuse often starts when the woman has lost power and status - ie, when she is pregnant or on maternity leave. That’s when it becomes apparent whether her partner is supportive and a genuine partner or sees the children as hers to provide for, and her work in caring for them as negligible and a drain on the family rather than a major contribution.

I didn’t realise I’d been in an abusive marriage until I’d been separated almost a year! Now I can look back and see red flags but I didn’t know it at the time. I thought he as everything I’d ever wanted in a man. I am late diagnosed ADHD and autistic. I saw a video recently that said neurodivergent women don’t pick up on subtleties so when they are love bombed it just feels like it’s all they wanted. Plus it provides dopamine!

I learned a helpful phrase recently: I did the best I could with information I had at the time
I have educated myself. I am working on my healing. I am forgiving myself for things I blamed myself for. But I didn’t know any better when I met him.

Yeah when I was single and doing OLD I ended up talking to this guy who was a single father. I don’t have kids so don’t usually date men with kids but this guy seemed smart and emotionally intelligent initially, so we clicked and I liked the fact he had his teen son most of the week (so not a deadbeat dad which is unattractive to me) I’m cautious about meeting with men so I usually feel them out over 1-2 weeks through text and phone calls.

This man’s true colours started coming out, his recent ex was “crazy” and after I grilled him a little he claimed she was violent to him. The details of the story were vague and didn’t add up though , so it made me wonder if he twisted the story.

I then asked him about his ex wife who he had divorced shortly after his son was born. He was evasive and wouldn’t answer.

By this point it was clear I’d lost interest and I declined his invite to meet up that weekend (some low effort walking date) . I was getting serious narc vibes from him and could see we weren’t a match but I was just going to let things fizzle out .

Meanwhile he had clearly viewed me as “hard work” and a “bit of a bitch” ie. He realised his charm wasn’t working and I was asking difficult questions and wasn’t going to tolerate his crap. So the next morning I saw he had blocked me.

It’s always nice when the trash takes itself out 😄 but yeah the point is sometimes abusers - whether they see themselves as that or not - are testing you and weighing up how much they can get away with.

It’s not by coincidence I’ve not seriously dated an abusive man for any longer than 1 or 2 months. When I see the signs I’m out!

But I do appreciate some men wear mask for longer. I’ve heard of men doing a 180 on their wedding night or a week after their first child is born ! I don’t believe that’s the majority though.

I know of a long relationship where there were very few signs that it was abusive for years. Everything was great as long as the victim went along with everything the abuser wanted. And because the victim was easy going, loved them, and had very similar interests and opinions anyway, problems almost never showed up.

Only after many years did a difference of opinion serious enough for the victim to say no emerge. And that's when the abuse started. And in this case it was a woman abusing a man.

Easy to see the red flags in hindsight. Hindsight is 20/20 etc.

But is your partner working late because he's got a deadline, or is he secretly having an affair?

Is he blaming his "crazy" ex for his previous break up because it's true, or a red flag?

Does he have no social media because social media sucks, or is he hiding something?

I would accept all those things at face value initially. Only when things went horribly wrong might I see them as red flags.

I don't disagree, but it has to be recognised. Some women call it out - others don't even recognise it until it's too late.

And as for men... well, I couldn't agree more that they need to bloody well step up and take on a LOT more of this work.

But, I also think that in order for them to do that, they have to SEE it first and my god, they don't. Obviously, there are loads of situations where they DO but choose not to call it out, but there are just as many where men are saying, "oh, he didn't mean it that way" or "he's a good bloke really, just a bit old school sometimes". Or when they not so secretly actually DO think that women should do all the domestic labour while they work in their Big Important Jobs. Every now and again, even the so-called allies will slip up with some comment that shows they're never going to actually call out the shitty behaviour because deep down, they don't actually think it's a problem."

@OhBling Women do call it out. We’ve been shouting about abuse for years and years. Change does NOT start with the onus being on women to do more - which usually involves educating men about their toxic behaviour. It starts with men and boys being taught about healthy relationships and mutual respect and consent. It starts with trauma symptoms in boys being picked up more, and being given help so that they do not normalise and continue the cycle of abuse. It starts with men calling out the sexist and misogynist behaviour of other men. It starts with men taking accountability for their behaviour.

I agree with this. Either the woman who won't put up with it dumps him, or calls him out and won't accept his behaviour - the abusive man calls her "crazy" and dumps her.

So either way women who won't put up with abusers don't end up with them. The women who instead, accept the abuser's behaviour and blame themselves - the relationship then lasts.

YANBU.

Short of a brain injury causing a genuine change in personality I believe there will be signs from very early on. Unfortunately many women have been programmed to see dominance and possessiveness as signs of strength, and are actively seeking these qualities. Other women just aren't in any position to choose, or go into the relationship so young they lack an adult understanding.

I don't think it is victim blaming to say most of these men are identifiable from very early in a relationship. I think pretending they are subtle masters of manipulation is less helpful than looking at the many reasons that women choose these men, and choose to stay with them, despite the obvious red flags.

I also wonder whether abusers/bullies see themselves like that and whether it is always a conscious decision on their part to be abusive or bullying.
I guess sometimes it is, but many times they believe their own narrative and see themselves as the victims because someone else has stood up to them.

I think this is also very important. It's often difficult for women to spot abusive behaviour or abusive men because the narrative eis that abusive men do it on purpose, they plan it, they're bad... and they can't get their head around it.

And the truth is that lots of abusive people are not, in fact, doing it on purpose. even when they're testing boundaries at the beginning of a relationship, they're not consciously htinking, "let me see how she reacts when I do this thing so I can decide if she'll let me abuse her more later." But rather, if the woman does NOT accept that thing, as you say, he moves on from that relationship thinking that the woman was "hard work" or "crazy" or "ridiculously demanding" or whatever.

@SwordToFlamethrower very similar to me, although my dad was lovely so it wasn't even that. I was just clueless. Not enough life experience.

I also wonder whether abusers/bullies see themselves like that and whether it is always a conscious decision on their part to be abusive or bullying.

I guess sometimes it is, but many times they believe their own narrative and see themselves as the victims because someone else has stood up to them.

My ex was horribly abusive for a number of years. He was also charming, well-liked, seemingly popular and had a long previous marriage where he and his ex were still "close" (a little too close imo).

Whenever he was challenged on anything he'd lose his temper, but turned it around to make it my fault. I thought it must be me because his ex had been with him so long and was seemingly still so dedicated towards him.

I walked away, got together with someone else and as soon as he knew this he was begging for me to take him back. I put conditions on trying again. Within a month we were back in the same place.

I walked away again and now he's back to trying to charm his away back again. Now I understand why he's too close to his ex. He's been doing the same to her. Never truly letting her go, promising to be just friends, which always ends up with something more.

It takes a lot to just block and delete someone you care deeply about, especially if you are isolated (possibly by them) yourself.

It's way more complex than just spotting red-flags. None of us are robots and we always want to believe the best of others.

Oh yes definitely. The only abusive relationship I've been in was when I was very young and naive. I kind of assumed that abusive men didn't exist in my universe. I also thought I was in love and overlooked a few more minor initial incidents.

I believe this is only partially true. I think that abusive people date as many potential victims as people who won't put up with it, but the difference is that the ones who won't put up with it either throw them back , or are thrown back, very early. you see it on MN all the time - a woman in a relatively new relationship, has some concerns, dumps the man. That man will just move on to the next person until he finds a woman who doesn't hear the alarm bells ringing with his early "tests" of whether he can get away with stuff.

@5128gap I totally agree. But I think it starts by getting women to recognise it, and call it out, and, as importantly, by society recognising it and calling it out. I'm so so tired of shitty behaviur being excused or justified by broader communities. How are we supposed to stamp out the crap behaviour if most of the time it's not even recognised as crap behaviour?

Its also interesting how often this comes up. With the constant theme being how can we rid women of trust, tolerance, seeing the best in people and optimism and turn them watchful, vigilant and suspicious. When really what we should be asking is how can we rid men of their entitlement to indulge their flaws and escalate their faults into intolerable behaviour. Always we ask what's wrong with women and pontificate about how they should fix themselves. Its like trying to stop a flood with a bucket rather than trying to turn off the tap.

Red flags are often only apparent in hindsight, also those who are abusive tend to instinctively gravitate towards victims whom they sense will not see through them.

I think you are overly simplifying abusive relationships. If it was as simple as just spotting these red flags from the offset then all women would go on their merry way. This is not how abuse works, and your entire posts has a tone of victim-blaming.

Firstly, abuse absolutely can come out of the blue without warning. Someone can become abusive after many years of not exhibiting abusive behaviour. This is especially common when a woman is pregnant, or is in the peri/post natal period. It is a vulnerable and potentially dangerous time for women, add into that the risk of abuse escalating when actually leaving the relationship.

Also, assuming there are red flags, people don’t ignore these because they are ‘in lust’. We learn what healthy relationships and boundaries are from our own experiences and those around us when we are growing up. Those that have experienced trauma / abuse (including witnessing domestic abuse) particularly if it was repeated or prolonged, and they were never protected, may normalise unhealthy behaviours because it’s all they’ve known. It can be difficult for those who’ve grown up in safe and secure homes, with present and emotionally regulated parents to understand this. But if all you’ve known is love and security, then it is so much easier to notice ‘red flags’ because it is so alien to you. Abuse and trauma creates a fog so it’s hard for victims to trust their own thoughts and feelings. It also massively impacts self esteem and sense of self, leading people to believe they have deserved to be treated poorly. This is what can make people vulnerable to abuse; but it does not in any way blame them, the blame lies entirely with the abuser, always.

Have you heard of the boiling frog analogy? Often domestic abuse is insidious, it happens gradually over time. It can happen to any of us. By the time the abuse has escalated, the psychological abuse / coercive control has done a number on the persons self confidence and they doubt the validity of their own thoughts. This is how abuse works. And it is never as simple as as ‘just leave’.

I think it is absolutely important to encourage women to be confident and autonomous and empowered, to understand healthy relationships and boundaries, to be able to notice red flags and walk away. All of this should be taught in schools. There should be more help for those who experience abuse at any age, in order to heal and to break the pattern of entering into abusive dynamics. Men should not abuse women and girls in the first place, and should be held to account.

TLDR: Red flags are not missed due to lust, abuse is complex, victim blaming is wrong, men need to stop abusing women.

There were loads of early red flags in my abusive relationship, but I didn't spot any of them because I absolutely did not understand them.

Actions not matching words

Gaslighting

Controlling behaviours

Losing his temper

Framing himself as a victim

I was young, inexperienced and came from an abusive home, so didn't have any decent male role models to learn from.

Victim blaming yay

I remember that it was obvious so early on that exBIL was deeply insecure and it resulted in some really crap behaviours. But we were all so naive... he'd had a tough childhood (genuine) and a "crazy ex" (a red flag in itself, we now know) and so we all just thought that once he felt confident in his relationship with SIL, so many of these behaviours would, obviously, disappear.

<hollow laugh at our ridiculous naivete and cluelessness> But as a result, none of us thought his crappy behaviour was necessarily a deal breaker. And, as it turns out, SIL was hiding a lot of it from us too....

Oh, another post blaming women who’ve been through abusive relationships for not recognising red flags at the time or not understanding the seriousness of them.

Cool cool cool cool cool cool cool

My father was abusive. I knew I wasn’t going down that route: The first sign was the last - but I have confidence to appreciate my own worth:

My daughters have been raised the same - no man is worth it.

My dearest friend escaped an extremely toxic relationship - it’s hard when they are in full throttle. Looking back she knows things weren’t right - she put up with a lot but just couldn’t escape, he spend all the money, controlled who she saw and what she did, kept asking for more babies etc

Blame themselves try to keep them happy walk on eggshells, it’s more complex than it being their own fault. It isn’t.

Men prey on woman, woman accept shitty behaviour because it’s all they’ve known.

As last poster said. We are conditioned as women to put up with incredible levels of crap from men. Just look at some of the threads on here.

Don’t blame women for that

No, sometimes there are no red flags until the relationship is well advanced. Abusers can be remarkably skilled at concealing their abusive intentions. Sometimes red flags are overlooked for one reason or another, but sometimes they just aren't there.