To think there are always missed red flags early on in eventual abusive relationships?

This.

Some people do continuously overlook red flags. Not everybody, not by a long way. Some men really are bait and switch and pathologically good at hiding their dark side at first.

Others who don't completely mask it can get away with it by preying on those who are more likely to put up with poor behaviour due to what they've seen growing up.

I have a friend who every time she uses her bank card her DH gets a notification how much she's spent and where. This was set up when they set up their joint spending account. Is this a red flag? AFAIK they do not have an abusive relationship. Should the relationship turn abusive (not necessarily financially, but physically emotional etc), would this in hindsight be classed as a red flag?

For me, I would have said no way to this suggestion from the get go - but she's fine with it. That said, in my abusive relationship, the only in hindsight (pre DC) 'red flag' was being late, but 10-15 mins each time we made plans. I'm not sure this is a red flag - I've seen it discussed on here from the perspective of the perpetrator of lateness and apparently there can be reasons to be late other than not valuing other's time.

Friend mentioned above would not tolerate lateness but tolerates what I see as excessive oversight of her spending and whereabouts, whereas I am the other way around.

Perhaps I'm one of these woman who can't see red flags, but seriously, I see behaviour in the men in literally all the hetrosexual couples I know behave in ways that could be described as red flags. I'm not saying they are being abused, I just think they only become the 'obvious red flags' once the abuse has started and it's too late.

I came from a high conflict house where shouting was absolutely normal and bad behaviour by men was minimised by my mother, so my boundaries were just all over the show.

Me, too. My very first date with XH#2, I was late. I'm often late, and was totally used to being shouted at for it, so my reaction to his rant was more like "Hope he runs out of steam soon" than "Fuck this for a date, I'm off."

He was well out of order, but within my bounds of normality. Now I have a better-built 'shark cage', I wouldn't stand for that nonsense - but I'm sure there are still things I'd let slide because everyone's imperfect. Once you've let a couple of things slide, it gets much harder to know where you draw the line.

We do see aaaall the time on here, some of us will pick up on a misogynist comment made by an OP's partner, or a small misdemeanour that doesn't fit the personality sketched by the OP, then dozens of other replies will tell us off for "man-hating" and the like. You shouldn't underestimate the antipathy - from both sexes - to women holding standards.

It's getting better, though 🙂

For my ex there was a sign early on before we moved in together. Nothing major but it was a sign of the childish silent treatment stance he took anytime I ever raised anything with him.

It’s not black and white though, most people aren’t 100% bad, and most people have some faults so it’s quite normal to weigh up if you can live with it, or try and talk it out with them.

My ex was so generous when I was his colleague / friend, always the one to buy the first round of drinks in. He would never let me buy a drink. Who knew he would go on to be mega tight, we argued constantly about money and even after we split he barely paid maintenance for years (has saved for kids uni though). If people immediately dumped people at the first red flag then a lot of relationships wouldn’t last long as few people are perfect.

I think people ignore the signs. They are there but people choose to ignore them and usually do the same for next and the next partner

Even when people tell them and warn them they ignore it and put their head in the sand

They don’t hit you on the first date. You get love bombed by your dream partner. They love you so much they can’t be apart from you. Have to come with you when you see your family and friends. The friends and family will commit some slight and suddenly be labeled as toxic. Your life slowly revolves around him and his friends and family. Once you have a child and no longer work and you can’t easily escape the abuse starts. Sometimes the red flags are the perfect relationship. If you manage to get out the abuse just gets worse. Sometimes he will meet someone else and cut off their kids, sometimes they continue the abuse using the kids.

I think some people are more vulnerable to an abusive relationship as they don’t have people around them, it makes them a target.

It can take a long time to realise you are in an abusive relationship. I remember thinking my friend should have left a horrific situation with every sort of abuse imaginable. How silly she was not to see how bad it was while being in an abusive relationship myself. He didn’t hit me, and that is all we were told was bad.

It’s something that has been happening since society began. And hopefully by talking about it people see the warning signs earlier. It won’t stop until we stop blaming women for things men do.

I agree @OhBling I think very few abusers set out to be that way. Yes there are some very messed up manipulators there but I think its much more likely to arise when someone is under stress and maybe acting out on a childhood trauma. I don't have personal experience I admit.

I think society should be looking for and supporting men who are at risk of being abusive. If for example a young man feels intense rage when he sees his new girlfriend talking to another man, that should be a red flag for him to get some help. There are probably personality types or life experiences that make someone more at risk. Men should be trained to spot red flags and work on them. It's usually grounded in MH issues. I'm not trying to justify or excuse this type of behaviour but it would be to everyone's benefit if it was addressed more. If men are encouraged to challenge themselves more they will be more likely to call it out more too in friends and family.

I knew what DH was like, early on.
I thought I could help him. I can’t…

@Sansan18 I'm sorry that you had that experience.

I couldn't tell from your post if you wanted to be able to acknowledge his coercive control and move away from the widow role. If you did, could you identify one or two people who you wanted to tell and then wait for a suitable opportunity to make a casual comment (for example you see an advert for something related to weddings or are watching a film where someone celebrated an anniversary and you can comment that "I don't think even if husband had lived that we would have celebrated our x anniversary." or "I remember being happy on my wedding day, I'm not sure how long we would have stayed together if he hadn't died"). It isn't sharing the coercive control but does share some of your position that it was not an entirely happy marriage and might give you back some control.

I don’t think it’s victim blaming - it’s true there will likely be red flags, but for whatever reason the target misses them, or doesn’t act on them. I got together with my exH when I was 20, he was 4 years older and there was a slight power imbalance there.

The physical abuse was slow and insidious (starting with smashing things, then pushing, pinching, working up to hitting over the course of 15+ years) but there were plenty of signs of him being controlling and having an anger problem if I’d bothered to notice them. I came from a high conflict house where shouting was absolutely normal and bad behaviour by men was minimised by my mother, so my boundaries were just all over the show.

I think back now and I remembered in the early days,exH telling me (a) he’d once crashed a car while drunk as a uni student with his ex gf in the passenger seat, who he was cheating with on his current gf (b) he once broke the nose of another player on n a schoolboy rugby match (c) he once spat into a taxi because the driver had taken him the long way and overcharged him 😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫

Just revolting. None of it to me but all 🚩🚩🚩 and the woman I am now at 43 would run for the hills if a prospective partner told me any of those things. 20 year old me was completely naive and unboundaried and thought he was a sensible and promising young lawyer 🤯

Sometimes it starts off so very slow and insidious they aren't even pale pink flags even to more cynical viewers, and then it becomes normalised so it progresses slowly to another stage up and so on, until you are so used to it, you couldn't see it when it was pointed out.

Don't underestimate a manipulators ability to do things slowly and with love and affection thrown in to distract their victim.

We are all susceptible too, no one is perfect.

It’s so difficult. I moved to a foreign country with my abusive ex and he began discouraging me from leaving the house without him because it wasn’t safe. This wasn’t entirely untrue, but it allowed him to limit my movements while pretending it was sensible. If i wanted to go out with friends he would pretend to be ill and go to bed so i needed to stay and look after him. If someone had said to me ‘do you think he’s pretending to be ill to keep you home?’ I would have said that’s ridiculous how can anyone be such a psycho? So yeah, once I had the benefit of hindsight these were red flags, but initially it’s hard to tell

I might not say always, but I would say often.

Some people have poor judgement and can't see the problems, that can be due to their own background, or even just being an easily led personality.

Some will accept problems because they think it is the only way they will have a relationship.

Some have problems of their own and men with problems feed into that in some way.

There are a few clever predator men, but in a lot of cases even there, you see certain friends may see the guy is not trustworthy. There is something off. But these ones are harder to spot.

I don't buy it, either.

People let their immediate desire for boyfriend, marriage, kids, whatever, override the obvious red flags. Just ask their friends and family.

I was very naive.

My exh on one of our first dates told me his whole family shouted a lot but it didn't mean anything. Weird thing to bring up.

What a bunch of hysterical drama queens. Especially him and his dad. Assholes.

I've only had one abusive relationship in my life. I was hyper aware of it in relationships because I was removed from my parents at 7 because of their abuse.

In my exes case he wasn't abusive until I'd given birth to our twins. The first time he was an absolute dickhead to me - the very first time in the 6 years I'd known him - was when they were 3 weeks old.

There may sometimes be red flags,but it's not a given.

This.
I had shit parents who I think singled me out. I can now see that being conned into marriage by an abusive man had a lot to do with my upbringing.

I agree, however, the subjugation of women is part of the means by which men (as a group) maintain their dominance. They won't give it up willingly!

The focus should be on men not abusing, not whether you can spot a wife-beater at 100 paces.

You don't see the OP's post as victim- blaming because you are also victim-blaming

Do you ever wonder why men ignore/miss their behaviour becoming toxic/abusive/violent?

Do you ever wonder how they miss the the red flags and why they don't leave their female partners/wives/children before they end up stalking/abusing/raping/murdering them?

No? You don't ever wonder that?

You're failing to take into account the manipulative nature of so many abusers. Many have one or more of the cluster B personality disorders and are experts at pretending to be decent and normal, and sucking people into their orbit.

In my experience you are right. I was in a couple of abusive relationship abd looking back their were red flags. I just didn't notice them because I was young and niave and both relationships were very different and abusive in different ways to each other.. so I didn't learn to spot the signs from one iyswim as the abuse presented in a different way in the other.
But from the very beginning there wee classic signs. Boundaries immediately crossed.

However that's just my experience.
I'm sure there may be people who end up in abusive situations where there were really no signs of it at all at the beginning.

I think there are often signs but sometimes the victim doesn't recognise them, it can be subtle and couched in terms of him being caring and concerned rather than controlling. For example, I had a friend who's partner would call and text multiple times when she was staying with me. She read that as his being so in love with her and missing her. If I went to stay with her he would be moody and sulky so eventually she would only invite me when he was away. She was gradually indoctrinated into keeping the peace with him by doing what he wanted. He was never threatening or violent but he used emotional blackmail. It's insidious and wears you down over time.

Horrible post OP.

No ACES in my history. No red flags. In no way a domineering person. Then one day, totally out of character, the first swear word appeared in frustration...after 12 years together. I didn't choose the man he became.

Where does it end? Is all assault the fault of the person who was out after 10pm?