To think there are always missed red flags early on in eventual abusive relationships?

What an arrogant first post op.

If you are being abused, you are not responsible for the behaviour of your abuser. By your logic, murder victims should also take responsibility for their deaths.

It is being taught at school in an age appropriate way from Reception. But people's families are their first and most important educators.

And schools can't do everything.

Not realising that I mean ‘he is doing things every day’ not just when he is under stress. This behaviour has gone from once in a blue moon, to my everyday now.

I agree with teaching it at schools. I often spoke to my sister and friends and would say ‘he said this’ or ‘he is sulking again’ they would say ‘that’s normal, that’s men for you, you should see what my DH does, it’s worse!!’

I don't disagree that there are often red flags from the start but my son told me of a quote he read/heard somewhere - when you are looking through rose tinted glasses, all the red flags just look like flags and I think tha ti's true for a lot of people.

I agree with the posters who say the signs are often there but women ignore them for a multitude of reasons or don't recognise them as red flags.

How many threads are there on here where a woman details a litany of poor behaviours by a man and asks how she can help him?

How many times do women post to say her husband has left her or she's discovered cheating and is devastated only to go on to say she'd 'got past' similar early on in their relationship?

I think most people wonder how someone is only asking for help with they are pregnant with their third or fourth child when the behaviours she's describing have been there from the start.

I often say on threads that the signs are usually there (most recently on the threads about men not pulling their weight around the house or being fun suckers) and I'm sorry but I do think that there are signs from the start in many cases but women overlook them or don't recognise them as signs.

It's not blaming women for men's behaviour - those men are responaible forntheir behaviours - but the women have ignored those behaviours and married them anyway. Or realised he was lazy after the first child but still went on to have more. Or caught him cheating early on but got past it because they loved him and wanted it to work.

Upbringing has a lot to do with it and that is acknowledged every time a woman is encouraged to leave a shit relationship because, by staying, she's teaching her children what relationships look like.

People grow up thinking that's just what marriage is like or that's just how men behave - when it's not. And then all men get demonised as lazy, abusive, controlling, inherently selfish when they're not. But they are often more dynamic, confident and exciting to date in the early stages.

Some relationships are dangerous for women to leave and they are stuck between a rock and a hard place but it wasn't always like that. On this thread already someone has said they don't hit you on the first date they start by... and that is when the relationship should end. The first time you think, "Hang on, i dont like that!" But before it's become 'bad'.

There are still posts where a woman asks about his behaviours at the early dating stage but goes on to say that he's very good looking or he earns good money. As if those are tangible virtues that matter.

We, as a society, need to do better. We need to bring our children up to know their own worth and how to treat others but we don't.

And it runs very deep. Eg I don't watch films with female nudity or violence/sexual violence against women and you'd have no idea how difficult that is to avoid. The obligatory naked women in a shower scene, rape as a part of a normal storyline... I've been told on here in the past that I'm an adult and shouldn't have a problem with nudity or things that reflect real life but every time women are diminished in the eyes of men; everytime we see men assert power over women; everything time we see it as inevitable it harms all women.

Exactly, it's a pattern of behaviour - there are really no 'red flags' early on. More like a slowly building red mist - by definition can't be noticed early on. Some people are openly dicks which is when the relationship breaks down early.

Bit of a drip feed - if she eats lunch in a different place than usual he call to ask why. I find it gross but I don't hold her responsible for deciding it not worth breaking up her family over it. I agree it will escalate if and when he hits personal difficulties or she pushes back.

Domestic abuse escalates when the perpetrator is losing control. If your friend is fine with his control, which it is, then they might get along without too many problems.

It's usually when something changes in the relationship that it ramps up eg children, promotion or her pushing back.

His control will probably grow over time but it will be a slow creep. He'll couch it as caring for her, so why would she mind?

He's responsible entirely for his behaviour and she's responsible for her boundaries.

I think the biggest problem is that women don't know their worth, often because of shitty childhoods. I have a friend who has been in relationships with 3 different men who all show narcissistic tendencies (and had children with two of them). It's the type she chooses because of her upbringing.

She has zero confidence and needs to be 'rescued by a man'—that's what her mother taught her.

I was in an abusive relationship for just over a year. It would've been shorter but I was alone in a new city and needed to get my ducks in a row before I could leave. I knew he was a wrong-un because I was confident in what I deserved. I gave him a few chances because of childhood trauma, but my limits on those chances were fairly strict, so I knew I couldn't help him and deserved better.

I would not have had that confidence if I weren't brought up in a loving home. That is what I'm teaching my kids. To have the confidence to know their worth. I wish everyone could have that. Your tolerance for bullshit will be a lot lower.

For clarity because I'm a bit confused about this- if someone's otherwise lovely DH likes to get notifications each time his wife spends money saying how much and where because he (quote) 'likes to know she's safe and in her usual routine', do you think she should 'take responsibility' for this 'red flag' by ending the marriage (with young DC). The fact he likes these notifications gives me the massive creeps, but she thinks it's fine. In the event he becomes abusive, do you believe she needs to take responsibility for that because she didn't end their marriage over this?

You’re at your most vulnerable with a small child. The behaviour is then dialled up!

There's a lot of family to abusers out there who need to take responsibility too, my exMIL watched it happen with her own eyes, cowered with me from him, used to hide with me from him with the baby and still blamed me for it rather than her son who she found reasons to justify everything and still to this day I've become the problem for leaving and I'm the crazy ex despite we both know we had to hide for our own safety on multiple occasions before I left

I'm a mother to a son and I know how hard it must be to accept someone you raised behaving so badly but that's surely when you do your children/family members no favours painting the victim as deserving of it and excusing it

One of my brothers treats his ex (they have a child) horrifically sometimes and he isn't an outright nasty person, he hates himself and doesn't have self control over un dealt with trauma but as his sister I'll love him and care for him but NEVER will I not support and bluntly tell his ex this IS abuse he's doing to you or tell him it's acceptable or understandable and he doesn't desperately need to get himself into therapy and recognise how not okay and warn him its perfectly reasonable if his ex decides not to give him contact to his child at this point because Ive witnessed it for exactly what it is- abusing her and in that relationship he is NOT the victim

Men and women are responsible each for their actions and that includes keeping on having children with unsuitable partners and then moving the next unsuitable partner in to be around their children

Women don't have a get out of responsibility card just because they are female

I really feel that this is one of those situations whereby you have NO idea until you are in such position yourself. As much as someone can try and imagine...

FWIW I was in an abusive relationship when I was at university and have had non abusive relationships since that...now happily married to amazing man. So don't think it's true that people continue to walk into bad relationships

Agree with all of this.

It's very easy to say "oh I would spot..." but the reality is very different.

Abusers tend to be very skilled manipulators. And these so called red flags are hidden well.

And pregnancy can absolutely be a trigger point. It's when the abuser is no longer the centre of their victims world, and that's a problem for them.

The analogy of the boiling frog is a good and accurate one.

And perhaps, if people were less judgmental (like the op) of the victims, it would make victims speak out rather than leaving them too embarrassed to.

You “just don’t buy it”? So what’s your theory about why “these same women” apparently choose to ignore the red flags?

That's very sad about your nanny, @Endoftheroad12345. It must be so painful to watch. I hope, at least, she knows about Mumsnet!

my now DP can get a pretty solid grilling sometimes but he loves me and understands why that is and I’m never met with anything other than empathy and love - You know, this is lovely. And you've taught me something, so thank you!

I think this nails it. I was raised by an incredibly strong single mum. She didn’t really date, because so few men met her very high standards for someone she’d allow into our lives, but she did fall very deeply in love with a guy who turned out to be already married, and she dumped him the moment she found out. No arguing, no second chances, he was done.

So that was my role model, and I grew up to date, and eventually marry, kind hearted, loving men who treated me with respect. There were two exceptions - one who tried to raise a hand to me, so I immediately dumped him and refused to have anything to do with; and one I very quickly realised was trying to manipulate me, so again got himself immediately dumped.

If I hadn’t had such a strong role model, maybe I wouldn’t have realised that either of these behaviours was unacceptable, or at least not as quickly. And thinking about it, my mum also had a great role model - my grandad adored my grandma, and never treated her with less than the utmost respect. I suspect she thought if she couldn’t find that herself, she rather stay single!

Why do we always blame women for the shit behaviour of men. Perhaps ask yourself that.

Excellent victim blaming OP. Well d

I don't disagree that before full blown abuse there's warning signs but also disagree that it's that simple

My exH was the most wonderful husband for years before the abuse happened and it was stress, MH issues and a drinking problem from stress along with new responsibilities like fatherhood and a significant bereavement that created the man who became abusive vs the man who I had married and he's still an asshole to me sometimes but he's managed to stay steady in a relationship for the last 7 years with another woman who hasn't reported being on the end of any abuse 🤷‍♀️

I went on dates with a dude who was good with his stories and reasoning away red flags for a moment but who most obviously thinks abuse is just normal in any relationship and tried gaslighting me that it's not unusual once in a while to have the police called during an argument- one was very obviously dumb to get involved with but my exH was years of happy before it happened 🤷‍♀️

@Garlicwest Yes agreed. My lovely young 23 year old nanny is currently in relationship with a man who I can see red flags all over - but who she is contorting herself to make it work with. Because “he’s just insecure” “he’s sensitive” “her previous boyfriend was so much worse”, “he loves me so much”, she flirted with someone else (after he dumped her when she rightly suspect he was lying about something) and now she is the cheater… It’s really awful to watch it play out. And this is a young well educated girl from a loving and stable home.

I think my shark cage is pretty impenetrable now, touch wood. I protect my boundaries so fiercely that my now DP can get a pretty solid grilling sometimes but he loves me and understands why that is and I’m never met with anything other than empathy and love. As it should be! Only took me quarter of a century to figure that out.

I don't know about women repeatedly getting into abusive relationships. But I do agree that the signs are usually there from the start.