To think there are always missed red flags early on in eventual abusive relationships?

I'm not really sure how else we were suppose to interpret the statement that I really feel that by acknowledging that all of us can often ignore the red flags when we are in lust but I'm glad you feel that this has been interesting and your viewpoint has been expanded.

Yeah, actually, outside of OP's contributions it's actually been an interesting thread though with some useful insights and comments I think!

Your original message said that red flags are ALWAYS there and that they're missed because women are in lust, basically suggesting that they're so busy having sex that they're not noticing the man is a bad 'un. Bad women. Naughty women feeling all the feelings and the lust and the sex.

Now you're saying that it's more complex and that the reasons red flags, if they are there, are missed, are varied and it's not the women's fault. So I consider it a win as you have moved away from blaming women's need for a man and sex to accepting that there are lots of nuanced reasons.

It is so complicated though. It can creep up on people and so feels normal. People can be very lovely a lot of the time and abusive some of the time. It isn’t always black and white. Sometimes both people are a bit unreasonable but one partner tips into becoming abusive. It is usually portrayed as straightforward on tv and in movies so that viewers don’t victim blame, but in reality it is rarely straightforward for the people involved especially when they love the people they are being abused by or are abusing (whatever love means).

I think having any relationship involves a degree of trust and willful blindness, even with a good person. This is why people who have suffered an abusive relationship can find it so difficult to have a normal healthy relationship.

I think that creating an expectation that by being hyper vigilant one can avoid becoming ensnared in an abusive relationship is likely to create a situation where you are so guarded and defensive that you aren't able to be vulnerable and open enough to develop trust and closeness with a good person.

@OrangeCarrot You deliberately created this narrative. Look at the ignorance in your first post. It is not the job of those who have experienced abuse to educate you. Take some responsibility for your ignorance and educate yourself. I’m out - this is a waste of my time, and you deliberately wrote your post in an inflammatory way (citing ‘lust’ as an only explanation for why women ‘miss red flags’) in order to get a reaction. You have contributed absolutely nothing to the ‘nuance’ and ‘complexity’ you now seem keen on repeating. Very odd behaviour.

I'm a huge fan of this article: https://drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/IdentifyingLosers.html

I think there are usually behaviours that women don't notice or tolerate because they aren't bad enough to reach a threshold. The massive personality change that a man comes when a woman gets pregnant is usually based in something, even if you were unaware of it beforehand.

👍🏻

For me, I was brought up to beleive (by behavuour of my parents rather than any actual 'teaching' of it) that;

I don't matter
My hurt is something that doesn't matter
We do what Dad says
Dad's allowed to be angry and shout and it doesn't matter if it upsets us
You should do what men say.
You should try to please men at all times otherwise they get angry and hit you or make you cry with their anger

I see this now, as a 40 something
But as a young woman I'd put up with ANYTHING from men, anything to stop them getting angry, anything they wanted went-I was nothing in comparison.

I came out as gay in my twenties but I got with some terrible women whom it was my job to please, too.

I still struggle now, but I am single and determined that it will NOT happen again!

I am saying that there are objective signs but that (for many potential reasons) they aren’t seen or recognised. We are all products of our genetics and environments so it isn’t the victim’s fault for not seeing them. But that doesn’t mean they weren’t there.

You are backtracking though becuase originally as has been pointed out, you said it was "lust". If you're backtracking ebcause you're starting to realise that your initial comment was a bit flippant and didn't take the nuance and complexity into account, great, I'd see this thread as a win.

But that doesn’t mean they weren’t there.

Which once again is you refusing to see anything beyond your narrative that in every case there are red flags.

When there isn’t.

There’s a reason that this AIBU has an almost 50/50 split. Reflect on that.

I’m not the one that needs to reflect.

No, it's not victim blaming if you aren't blaming the victim. I don't blame the women in these abusive relationships, I blame the men. It still doesn't take away from the fact though that some people are better at reading people and spotting 'red flags' . Like everything else in life, we all sit on a spectrum that is informed by our natural abilities, our upbringing and life experience.

Using the analogy of riddles. All riddles will have enough information to solve them and enough 'clues' but we all differ in our ability to solve them. Some riddles will be solved by 99% of the population whilst others will only be solved by very few people who for whatever reason happen to be very good at riddles. I don't blame people who can't solve the riddles or think they are somehow lesser but I also don't pretend that sufficient clues weren't in the riddle to allow some people to solve them.

I think this distinction is important as we can all work on improving our riddle solving skills and we can work on reading people and spotting red flags. We don't all start at the same level of ability for lots of different reasons but we are all capable of getting better. The alternative is we truly believe that abuse is almost inevitable and there is nothing anyone can do to help women spot the signs earlier. I absolutely can't and won't accept this!

I came on to say something like this.

Nobody has never lost their rag in their entire life.

Nobody has never been mean to someone after having a bad day

Nobody has never suspected their partner's behaviour and asked questions (especially early on when you're likely not sure if you're 'exclusive', I mean 'Are you seeing this man or is he just a friend' is a legit question for the early days).

Nobody has never been depressed after something bad has happened 'Sorry I got angry with you, my best friend (who may not exist but we don't know that yet) is really ill and I am so worried!'' Then that continues always with simialar excuses.

I do know one woman who insists that her husband had no red flags until they were married and I think I believe her? They seemed so, so happy.

He wasn't abusive as such more so neglectful. They'd been together over a decade but once married, he turned on her in the sense that she just practically didnt exist. He was always out with friends, doing things not involving her in the house, leaving her by herself of an evening/weekend-it was like 'got you now, don't need to be nice any more!'.

I personally think it is very unusual for someone to have a complete transformation of personality and go from being a healthy, well adjusted individual to being abusive

And yet there are many many studies showing that abuse beginning during pregnancy, or shortly after, is absolutely a thing…

Are you speaking from experience, or judging but have no experience?

I think it is possible to accept that red flags have been missed without it being victim blaming. I do not see myself as a victim, I see myself as a survivor - there is a huge difference there for me. Even if I did see myself as a victim, I would not be blaming myself. My inability to see red flags was not my fault, it was the fault of those who raised me in an abusive environment. BUT, I did miss red flags in multiple relationships.

I personally think it is very unusual for someone to have a complete transformation of personality and go from being a healthy, well adjusted individual to being abusive. I accept that it does sometimes happen, but I think those are unusual circumstances.

I agree - I believe there are almost always signs. Usually minor ones that people brush off.

The key part of why is that women aren’t socialised to pick up on them - quite the opposite in fact.

I think this sort of stuff should be taught in schools - refs flags, boundaries etc.