To think there are always missed red flags early on in eventual abusive relationships?

Life is anything but neat & predictable! Every abuser is the same, yet all are different individuals and so are their partners. As Tolstoy observed, "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way".

I've certainly been in an interesting variety of abusive relationships, from birth through weird husbands and boyfriends, bosses, colleagues, flatmates and friends of both sexes. I had some red lines but they were so much further out than a healthy, balanced and secure person's lines, they may as well have been on a different continent. Glad I had them, though, or it's unlikely I'd be here to write this.

All the same, I'm writing from a very broken life situation which is no longer recoverable, and that is due to the effects of abuse. I spend quite a lot of time and what money I can spare on trying to help others avoid a similar outcome.

Emotionally healthy, balanced, secure and well-supported people have red lines that look totally unreasonable to the rest of us. I think this is why so many PPs have reacted so badly to the premise that there are always warning signs. It's not our fault that we didn't spot them, or chose to ignore them, and no-one has said it is.

Nobody needed to say it's our fault, did they? When you're used to being a blame-absorber, to being criticised and being 'wrong', to heading off bad consequences, you become hyper-alert. If someone's drink goes cold, you refresh it straight away although it's not your fault they left it by the window. When the away team wins, you start planning how to deflect your partner's anger. You train your eye to prefer the clothes he says he likes you in, your taste to choose his favourite foods; you see yourself as too fat or thin; you strive to be shape he wants. You anticipate, adapt, modify, excuse and anticipate some more.

We're so used to being held responsible for any and every negative, we automatically hear blame. Nobody said it's our fault we miss red flags but plenty of us heard it ... because we've been trained to anticipate blame. That's the thing to be angry about!

So what do these healthy red lines look like? Some PPs have illustrated (while, ironically, apologising for themselves). One off-key remark, one unreasonable request, one ridiculous outburst gets a very robust response - a clear, unequivocal statement of values. And part of that robust response is an ultimatum! Yes, an actual, boundary-setting ultimatum. No second instance is tolerated: the relationship is terminated.

Scary as it can be to even imagine, their approach is totally logical. If you don't want your life to feature X, Y, Z, then you don't bring those things into it. You don't bring them in and try to ignore them or continually argue with them, any more than you'd bring Ebola in and then argue with it.

This feels like a good place to re-post Reality's outline of healthy relationships 🤗
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/698029-Right-listen-up-everybody

it can feel like you're being blamed for not seeing red flags with nobody asking who tied the bloody blindfold over your eyes in the first place.

I'm not from an abusive family - my father has always been very loving. He also has an explosive temper. He gets over it quickly and there's no malice in it. When I married a man who also had an explosive temper, I thought it would be just the same. It wasn't.

That's an excellent article.

People say that anyone could be the victim of a romance scammer, but as a stingy introvert who works in cyber security, I have to say I'm pretty low on the list of wanting company or parting with my money.

On the plus side, very unlikely to have an affair. Can't imagine choosing to go to all that trouble just to spend time with a different man!

Of course we should learn to look out for red flags. But that absolutely does not mean that everyone in an abusive relationship 'missed' a red flag early on.

Life just isn't as neat and prescriptive as you think it is. Not every situation is typical. Not every abuser is the same. Not every abusive situation starts in the same way.

Ah yes, blaming the victim instead of the abuser. I was in an abusive relationship where my abuser was abusive since day 1. But because abuser pick victims who have such low worth, the manipulation and gaslighting he done to make me believe the abuse was my fault - I believed it and thought he was correct, I did deserve it. Victims IGNORE the red flags because like with me, I was in a world of my own where I thought I was the problem, the victim act he put on I believed. Abusers make you question if you’re the abuser, they make you question everything.

I didn’t even want to be in a relationship with my abuser, I was 19 and he was 29 - the first day I met him he introduced me to his auntie and his ‘girlfriend’ and it felt like I was trapped from then. I was young, naive and innocent with low self worth and although it was riddled with red flags abusers choose the most vulnerable of us. You state victims often are in abusive relationships, that’s why because they’re vulnerable and abusers pick those who are susceptible to it.

That describes a lot of the posts on Relationships and AIBU boards.

I completely agree with you. There is something quite gross about taking an inherently emotive topic and minimising it under the guise of wanting a ‘nuanced’ discussion when there is nothing whatsoever that is nuanced about the OP. Then of course the typical outcries of ‘people are so defensive!!!’ ‘Why are people so upset?!!!’ When posters call this out, and correct problematic assumptions in the OP such as women overlook red flags due to ‘lust’. It’s just tiring and concerning that people seem to enjoy hearing the details of others trauma. But all in the name of a ‘logical discussion’ of course.

@Plastictrees - excellent summary of what domestic abuse really looks like.

I think the use of the word "victim" is not particularly helpful in this thread. I was abused as a child and an adult but I do not attribute the label of victim to myself. I am a survivor of other people's abuse.

I also don't think that the use of the word "blame" is helpful either. Acknowledging that a person missed unhealthy behavioural patterns in someone else (red flags) doesn't mean that you are "blaming" them for being abused. We need to acknowledge that some people are trapped in hideous relationship styles because they know no better. If we were all able to do this, we might be able to recognise it in ourselves, recognise it in others and educate our children better.

Abuse is widespread and common. It can be mental, physical, sexual, financial etc and combinations thereof. We have to be able to discuss it openly with some degree of objectivity, even though for people who were abused that can be very challenging sometimes. Abuse shouldn't be a sensitive subject, it should be a widely and openly talked about subject and there should be far more education in school about it. This thread alone shows what a huge amount of education is needed!!!

So true. I am the least people pleasing person ever in that I will absolutely try hard to make people feel comfortable and I try to be kind etc, but I've never had a problem saying no when I need to. And I like to think I do it in a polite, and friendly way. I've never felt obligated, for example, to be friends with someone just because they want to be friends with me and similarly, I've never taken it personally if someone I want to be friends with doesn't have the time or energy to build that relationship.

Which means that a couple of red flaggish type things DH did in the early days were very quickly nipped in the bud by me - I din't see them as red flags, I just thought they were ridiculous. If he'd been a man who was wedded to abusive behaviour, we'd have broken up. Instead, he realised he was being a dick, apologised and we all moved on.

I can see where you’re coming from @Bumpitybumper but you are wrong about how to discern ‘red flags’ / unhealthy behaviour and I will try to explain why.

Comparing riddles with noticing unhealthy or toxic behaviour is not a like for like comparison. Problem solving skills can be learnt, refined and developed. Recognising abusive behaviour is largely influenced by our early experiences, things which are outside of our control - attachment with parents, early experiences of safety and reciprocity in relationships, adversity and trauma, our environment, witnessing our parents and siblings relationships, etc. From this we develop a subconscious template for how relationships work and what is normal. Therefore someone who has experienced interpersonal trauma, who did not feel safe at home, who witnessed DV, for instance - is much more likely to normalise abusive behaviour as they grow up. Because it is what they know to be normal. This is not a matter of intelligence or logic, otherwise this issue would indeed be easy to solve - this all happens on a subconscious, emotional level. People become conditioned to feeling unsafe in relationships as they do not know anything different. So when a partner shouts at them or speaks to them disparagingly, it is not met with the same jolt of shock (underpinned with the belief that this is not okay) as if this were to happen to someone without a history of abuse - because it feels familiar, it is what they have learnt relationships are like. This is exactly WHY this ‘all people should notice red flags’ narrative IS victim blaming - because it implies it’s a failure on the woman’s part to not be perceptive enough, not intelligent or knowledgeable enough to prevent being abused. But we are not all at the same starting point when it comes to recognising abuse for what it is, so it is very unfair to assume otherwise, and that it can just be learnt like solving a rubics cube.

Even if someone does not have a history of abuse or trauma, and has read about ‘red flags’ this does not make them immune to domestic abuse. Many types of abuse, including psychological and emotional abuse, and coercive control, happen very gradually which is why I referenced the boiling frog analogy in my earlier post. Men can often become abusive at a time when a woman is more vulnerable; pregnancy, following illness or bereavement, acute stress. Abusive tactics such as gaslighting serve to undermine a persons sense of self and reality, causing doubt and confusion. The abuser will continue to minimise and manipulate, it is very difficult to spot these behaviours when you are in the situation. And there may not be ‘warning signs’ until you are. Chronic abuse can massively negatively impact someone’s self esteem and self worth and their entire belief system - they end up believing it’s their fault and they cannot ‘do better’ which is one of many reasons why leaving is so hard.

It is NOT comparable to solving a riddle as people who are in abusive relationships do not lack knowledge or intelligence, they often have not had the safe and secure relationships needed to form a healthy working model of what healthy relationships FEEL like. Woman do not need to read lists of red flags; they often still won’t recognise the abuse they are experiencing. Women need to be able to trust their feelings; to recognise when they feel on egg shells; but this isn’t something that can be taught by reading. It takes experience of a healthy relationship to know what one is. Of course I still think there is value in learning about signs of abuse, boundaries etc but it is too simplistic to suggest this alone will stop women being abused. More focus should be on preventing violence against women and girls, and increasing systemic support for vulnerable groups who may be more at risk. These sorts of posts created by the OP, written in an inflammatory and dismissive way, do nothing to improve our understanding of abuse or how to stop men abusing. It is a complex problems that requires a complex solution.

This.

And you have your own mum saying “Yeah, that’s just what men are like..”

No I don't agree that there are always red flags. Sometimes there are but by no means always.

I think it's also worth saying that victims often end up in their situations because of positive personality traits.

They are forgiving, warm, people-focused and care about others.

I am selfish, arrogant, critical and can be a bit of a cold fish. I am less likely to be a victim of abuse for these reasons, but not because I'm a better/smarter person.

Great post

You say about blowing it out of proportion? It's quite a sensitive thread. And to be accused of saying something that I did not even after I pointed it out that I think you have misunderstood. You still kept going on. And it took someone else to cone along and say you misunderstood. My post was a simple post and you turned it into something else. Making me look like a bad person

I can't even ve bothered to read your posts. I have told you several times. You have mis understood me . And someone else pointed it out to you to . You then constantly write long winded posts. Which I have no idea what your taking about. Telling me what I said and what I mean ... I know what I mean and I know what I said .

I think there are also traits or aspects of a relationship that both parties are guilty of implementing and a change of those routines triggers the abuse. For example the couple who do everything together and let all their own friendships fade away suddenly have a baby in the mix, or couples who both don't allow each other talk to the opposite sex until the woman has a new male colleague and this starts a cycle of abuse. Had it been the other way the woman could have become the controlling one because the basis of their relationship was control. Neither of them would see this as a red flag because it was their norm, but in hindsight it was obvious.

You wrote:
This is an awful thread. Victims, survivor's or even families effected by the lose of someone through DV must feel great readying this
The controversy on this thread is that the OP suggested that there are always red flags. Many people have argued this is victim blaming. In this context I interpreted what you have written to mean that victims would feel bad reading this thread because some people were insisting that red flags were always present.

You then responded to me suggesting I had accused you of victim blaming which I hadn't done. I think tried to reiterate what I had actually said. You then said that your initial paragraph wasn't about red flags (which is what the whole thread is about) and I apologised for misinterpreting your post.

Written communication is difficult and people can easily take things out of context. I don't really think this warrants being compared to an abusive situation. It's a case of crossed wires. I accepted I was at fault when you made it clear that I had read your post incorrectly and apologised quickly. Before this I thought you had misinterpreted what I had written and was trying to gain a common understanding. I am sorry for your family's situation but please don't blow a few posts on the internet from a stranger completely out of proportion.

The thing is . This is what can happen even in a DV situation the victim/survivor's or family effected can say something it can be totally misunderstood. The person then tries to explain they have misunderstood/got it wrong. The person the argues no they have not . The victim/survivor's then gives up trying.

It's really not nice having to battle for what I actually said and explain what I did not say. Especially when it's something we are still going though

I have apologies. Sorry! I obviously misinterpreted your post.

I totally get this but it doesn't make it factually less true that the red flags or clues or whatever you want to call it are present. Of course, not everyone in that situation wants to hear about these red flags or even is in a position to be helped or to receive encouraging comments. It is a complex and hugely sensitive topic but I think we need to stay within the realms of fact when talking generally about abuse and what we can do to prevent it.

So I totally understand that a victim may feel better thinking that there were absolutely no signs and it could happen to anybody. It stops them feeling weak or stupid. In reality though, not spotting the red flags doesn't make them weak or stupid either. They are probably being manipulated by a highly skilled person that they love. It is very hard to contemplate for lots of people, especially because they are so close to the subject and therefore much less likely to see the red flags compared to outsiders looking in.

Your wrong i never said such a thing