To think there are always missed red flags early on in eventual abusive relationships?

Reading the news article of Gisele Pelicot reminded me of this thread. The warning signs something was off in her relationship was once her beer seemed to have a green tinge and an unexplained bleach stain in a pair of trousers - described as the 'perfect couple' one can hardly argue these are red flags that she was being abused.

I really hate quoting the perpetrator, but he said you cannot imagine the unimaginable which pretty much sums up my thoughts on this.

This conversation is absolutely fascinating to me, as good as therapy.
My exH definitely took something I confided in him and turned it against me at the end of the relationship. When the kids were younger I worked part-time but I always said that I planned to go back to full-time work eventually. My main reason was that I'm a bit of a worrier and I like to be busy and I could see a possibility of becoming anxious if I had too much time on my hands. Very normal conversation and exH seemed very understanding and supportive.
Towards the end of the relationship and after we broke up he tried everything to convince me that he was a good guy and the problems I had with him were just in my mind and a product of my anxiety. He genuinely wanted me to get a prescription for Valium instead of him cutting down on his insane drinking.

Absolutely.

I can accept that some abusers of course show signs of taking people for granted early on (such as the example I gave above of the DH basically being an inconsiderate twerp) which is escalates when you are tied together financially and with DC and specifically target emotionally close people in their lives such as their spouse.

But some people are capable of a level of deception that is unfathomable to an inexperienced person, either professionally or through life experience and there are no signs. I think it's a comfort blanket to think that there are early signs, the alternative (which some of us here know) is terrifying. That a person has the potential to lie and manipulate you out of your own life - these are not extremely clever people I don't think - but a non-'evil' person could not be capable of such things because they would build emotional connection with their partner, and as such see their pain as their own and stop inflicting it. Some psychos are able to essentially squash you without any pain and will do so if it benefits them.

I heard a criminal psychologist recently interviewed say that the most terrifying murderer he'd studied was a man finally locked up after murdering his third wife (all died in circumstances that could be circumstantial eg fell in front of a train - on the third murder indisputable evidence was found). He in every regard presented as decent a man - without a temper or troubled history etc- but the terrifying thing was he tried desperately to make himself out to be the victim of terrible bad luck. He needed the psychologist to show sympathy for him - he needed sympathy like I need air. He needed to control the other person. He wasn't exactly lying to get sympathy or a lighter sentence (like perhaps a 'regular' criminal would) he actually BECAME in his mind a person who deserved sympathy. He did this for control. Like rape, which I understand is mostly not about sex, but about power and control. In rape the victim is overpowered physically through strength or drugs or such, with this the power is felt through psychological manipulations. I don't think any of this is conscious or thought through it's an instinct like treading water if you fall in a swimming pool. This level of deception involves deep self deception and allows potential abusers to present fully as decent people. You'd have to be an extremely well trained professional psychologist, with also a lot of emotional support and back up from other professionals, to resist the level of emotional and psychological manipulation metered out by this man.

So yeah, imo the idea of red flags for abuse is a red herring. For me a red flag is something more flippant - eg, the guy doesn't like playing sport but he likes watching it. For me, that would be a red flag indicating we would spend all out weekends indoors indulging his TV based entertainment rather than going hiking like I prefer. Nowhere near abuse, but it a red flag which indicates the relationship will not work for us.

@PocketSand absolutely, this resonated with me.

Another thing I realised at a certain point was he was very good at getting me to share historic vulnerable moments, moments of self-doubt or insecurity. These would be met with seeming empathy and caring, only to be turned on me at some later date when I was vulnerable again.

@PocketSand Your post really resonates with me. As I said, my husband's behaviour started to get bad after my father died but the first time he threw something in anger was when I got home after an unexpected doctors visit and was tired and in pain. I booked us in for marriage counselling that afternoon, but it didn't make any difference.

Some abusive men like strong and confident women who call out behaviour they are not happy with at the start of a relationship. They appear to resolve any issues and so the relationship continues with what is assumed to be greater understanding of boundaries and expectations.

They play the part of a good partner with whom it is OK to share experiences with that might make you temporarily dependent or vulnerable.

Then bam you become pregnant, a new mother (even when planned), or random, bereaved, ill etc and it all crumbles overnight. In addition to the primary 'trauma' or experience you are also dealing with a DH who seems to have had a personality transplant over night. This really fucks with your head.

DH went from excitedly awaiting birth to unable to even lift 5lb baby because of mysterious back injury even though I'd had C-section and insisting that I did everything - he couldn't possibly take care of me or change nappies or even bring baby to me to breastfeed because he was in so much pain and I was evil for not putting him first. He was jealous of the baby breastfeeding ... let's leave it there, I will vomit if I elaborate.

They vacillate between anger and wanting to punish you and love bombing. Eventually it is just anger and desire to punish and you are a shadow of your former self.

It is only when you deal with the primary experience/trauma and with hindsight that you can piece together the side shit show and think maybe it was a red flag that they pretended to praise you and appreciate that you stood up for yourself and had such strong boundaries (unlike ex girlfriends or their mother). Really they were biding their time. Waiting for inevitable vulnerability.

But then maybe by then your temporary dependence and vulnerability has become the norm and you find yourself stuck in a relationship that seems to randomly switch from tolerable to abusive and you can't make it OK or escape without the help of woman's aid.

I know of one woman who had the worst childhood and later abusive relationships but did find the kindest most gentle man who loves her deeply and treats her very well. He had an abusive childhood as well.

Few people I know had idyllic family homes. However we take not just our experiences but our personalities into relationships as well. Not all people with good childhoods are well adjusted decent people, not all those with bad childhoods are emotional basket cases.

We all have the ability to leave our past in the past. Sometimes we need a little help knowing what to shelve. Not all those who are lost remain lost, they sometimes just need a gentle point in the right direction but they have to be open to it.

My father and my exH had a good relationship. If there is a heaven and my father is looking down, he's going to kill my exH for a second time in the afterlife.
My own experience would make me very wary of the narrative that women from bad homes ignore red flags and that's the only pathway to a toxic relationship.

I had a lovely father. Kind, wise, responsible, always did the right thing and always put family first. Sadly I was rather naive - not necessarily because of this but I am open to the possibility that it might have played a part - and believed that the vast majority of men were like this too, and marriage and a family would make them more so not less. It took a long time for me to realise that exH was never going to step up to the plate.

Yeah I find that that’s an interesting take as the prevailing wisdom is usually that it’s women who didn’t have decent fathers who struggle more because of their lack of a good role model and “desperation” to fill whatever hole their father. And that’s how you get the stigma and stereotypes of the girl with “daddy issues” (hate that phrase!) I’ve even heard of men who specifically target women who have an absent/crap Dad because they think they’re easier to manipulate and mistreat etc. disgusting!
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I would say anecdotally though that all my friends who got happily married at age 25-30 to great men and are still with them are almost all from homes where they had great fathers.

That said I know plenty of women who also had decent fathers that bounced from one toxic partner to another.

I'm struggling to think of many women I know with bad fathers, who had the kind of simple married by 25-30 to a nice man of a similar age with an uncomplicated back (no previois kids etc) type story.

It is complex as with all these things

Thanks for posting this. I have always believed that if I’d had a good, strong dad around I wouldn’t have been treated so badly. Clearly it’s not so simple.

That's a brilliant post, @OhBling. Thank you for highlighting how good men can be potentially abusive, simply by virtue of their unconscious male entitlement. As you say, it could only take an overly pleasing or 'blame seeking' partner to set up an abusive dynamic that may have been avoided. It's a powerful argument for strong, uncompromising boundaries.

So pleased you're raising a young man to be aware of his privilege and thoughtful of others! There is hope for the future.

This is uncanny. This is exactly me. I don't think I will ever trust again. Not only potential partners but frankly anyone. I'm wary and cynical entirely closed off to forming new trusting relationships with anyone. I will work cordially with people and have social relations but I don't trust even my friends. I am open only with my own children because they are the only people I would be happy to be happy at my expense. If someone genuinely thinks that an abuser is not capable of hiding signs ('red flags') from their targets then they are potential victims. My ex is still hugely popular, charming, well-liked, trusted (he doesn't struggle to find woman how can see a future with him -he loves to fake a life to get sympathy and sex from woman) - if there are signs of being a shithole then everyone misses them I'm afraid to say. Which is why I won't trust anyone no matter how well I know someone.

Nobody needed to say it's our fault, did they? When you're used to being a blame-absorber, to being criticised and being 'wrong', to heading off bad consequences, you become hyper-alert. If someone's drink goes cold, you refresh it straight away although it's not your fault they left it by the window. When the away team wins, you start planning how to deflect your partner's anger.

I think this explanation from @Garlicwest is so good. And not just because it describes the way the victim acts but because I think it highlights this weird dicotomy we've talked a little about on here already where many of these men are not necessarily intrinsically bad men. My DH is not abusive. But I have absolutely no doubt that in a different relationship, he would display abusive behaviours. There's no EXCUSE for that, but I think as some people have pointed out on this thread - it's not just about training women to spot these, but actively training men not to do them. Things like the drink going cold and blaming someeone else, or not putting any effort into monitoring or controlling your behaviour rwhen disappointed.... those are things that I think many many men just grow up thinking is their right and they have to be told that it's not, and they have to listen. And that's true even for the good ones. DH was the golden child, the boy, the perfect son... and let me tell you, his parents did him (and me) no favours by that. Luckily he's also an intelligent, educated, caring person (I guess I can thank his parents for that too) so he's done the work to challenge his own assumptions and behaviours. But in a different world, in a different relationship... well, perhaps not.

Teaching my DS about taking responsibility for himself, his actions, his behaviours, his impact is practically my most important task I feel. Just like he's always been bigger and taller than the other children (he's currently almost 5ft10 and he's only 13!) so i started teaching him about a version of "consent" when he was 2 - I didn't want him accidentally hurting someone or pushing boundaries without realising it.

I think the OP saying that some women will repeatedly get into toxic relationships is very simplistic. I'm sure that it does happen, but also I know that there are a lot of women like me who will have reflected a lot after leaving a bad relationship and will be much more wary afterwards.

I'm not sure if I exactly believed it my responsibility to fix him so much as I instinctively believed him every time he said he was sorry and wanted to change. It took me an embarrassingly long time to accept that his behaviour was getting steadily worse and give up hope that things were going to magically be good again.
I definitely plan to go to therapy in future and work through it all properly.
I plan to spend a long time being single because I feel that now I would be constantly looking for red flags in a new relationship. I don't think I could trust another man.

Oh, that's really nice to hear, :@bibliomania! Thank you 🤗

Some very insightful posts here. @Garlicwest Yy to internalising blame as part of the dynamic. (my parents both blamed me for getting into the relationship, making clear how hard it was for them, and also supported me getting out of it). And if you've had garlic names for a long time, your posts helped me many years ago when I was leaving.

Same in pretty much every regard. My DHs behaviour was impeccable - he was the perfect DH - until my father died and I was pregnant with number 4.

I know this is not the point of this post, but if you are in financial/personal difficulty you do not need to be putting quite a lot of time and what money you can spare into helping other. It is nice of you, but you are ok to focus only on you right now.

I believed my husband was also a good man, just one who had a very difficult childhood.

So, somehow, you'd internalised a belief that it was your responsibility to mend a dysfunctional male? It'd be interesting to hear if you know how that happened.

I think this is very true. I ended an abusive relationship a few ago. My father was a genuinely good and decent man and I had a good relationship with him. I believed my husband was also a good man, just one who had a very difficult childhood. Interestingly, my husband's behaviour really deteriorated soon after my father died.
I think I'd recognise red flags in a relationship very early now because I know how bad a relationship can get. Being a much loved daughter made me look at men through rose tinted glasses.

Hindsight is always bloody amazing.

Certainly were red flags all over mine but I was naive/chose to ignore them. Had I taken notice I would have spared myself 5 years of hell.

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https://www.freedomprogramme.co.uk/online.php