AIBU or does anyone else thinks that most (not all) men are inherently lazy?

@Thepeopleversuswork and @peppermintteacup Yep, it’s what finished things with my ex. Spoke to him about it so many times. How having a demanding (and better paid) job, three young, boisterous and messy DC, plus having to do all the endless organising, cleaning, gardening etc was exhausting me. I said to him many times, I didn’t want to be his manager at home. I didn’t want him to ‘help’ me. I wanted him to take some frigging responsibility. He didn’t. So I eventually left.

Very telling his mother did everything at home even though she worked. His father joked he didn’t know how to use a washing machine (he was an engineer). I don’t think he’d ever bought clothes for himself. Not even a pair of pants. He got other people to buy her perfume for her birthday. She even applied for a job for him when he was made redundant. When we were staying, she wouldn’t let me in the kitchen to help with food or wash up.

I wasn’t used to that. My dad had a very responsible job while my mum did the odd part-time job here and there. But every weekend, my dad went shopping, made food, built things (like our 8-track stereo and wooden play house), did DIY, took us daughters out for walks and worked on our allotment. My grandfathers were both the same.

My ex and I clearly had different reference points.

I’m interested in what these men have in common. What is it that has led these rare men, who do pull their weight, to go against the general trend? Do you have any advice for the rest of us?

I've just never seen it as my responsibility so, if I met man who appeared to be the sort of man who expected a woman to do everything (usually evident in other attitudes), I didn't see him again.

When a man has gone to do something (because, when men live alone, they are capable of doing all of these things). I have never once told him to sit down and offered to do it for him.

I read a thread on here earlier this year when a significant women who complained of their husbands being lazy, also admitted that, in the early days, they had insisted on doing everything to showcase how much she cared and her domestic skills etc. I've also never assumed a man would change or that I could change him and a lot of women on that thread said that they did just assume it would change once they had a baby because he would want to automatically step up.

Basically, the only thing the men I've met/dated etc have in common was that they weren't lazy. I didn't tolerate it for a second.

I've also never looked to date men who 'treat me like a princess', were 'gentlemanly/chivalrous' or insisted on paying for every date (refusing offers from le to do so) because I think those attitudes often go hand in hand.

I agree with this.

For some reason if I complain about something not being done and my partner not doing his fair share, he'll say "you never told me to do that" as if it was my responsibility to tell him what needed doing.

I've told him multiple times I am not his project manager. Particularly when it comes to things like remembering the right things to put in kids bags or where they need to go when.

I don't know why this is considered so hard or somehow always forgotten and it's just expected that it will get done because I'll remember to do it, or I'll remember to tell him to do it.

He has apologised a few times now when I've pointed out he should remember and know what needs doing. But I don't see a shift in actions yet.

@EdithBond

straight men have been socially conditioned (as we all have) to sexism, leaving women to be their (unpaid and often unappreciated) domestic servants. In my experience, this can be particularly true of men who had mothers who didn’t work outside the home at all, or much, in their formative years. So, their reference point for women in relationships can be they do everything, or most things, at home and/or with childcare.

Exactly.

And the thing is these mothers' financial wellbeing (via their marriages) dependent to a large extent on their capacity to do housework and other things which kept things ticking over nicely and kept the husbands happy. The mothers had a huge incentive to not rock the boat so the sons by and large have been trained to think that a "good" mother is one who does all the work he doesn't want to do. This is subsiding but very slowly.

I married a gem. He makes me look lazy. He is out now in the cold mending our fence after last night. He has put the shopping away and the washing on. He is retired and does nearly everything around the house.
He has painted hall, stairs and landing plus living room this past week.
I work fulltime and have a meal ready for when I come in.

Not all lazy - but most are inherently very selfish.

Men seem to be selectively lazy .

They seem reluctant to to anything that isn't directly beneficial to them.

I think a lot of men are pretty entitled and expect a degree of looking after. That being said it’s not universally true because my husband is much less lazy than me and gets so much done compared to me! My dad, brother and brother in law are also very motivated and do at least their fair share of household work / childcare etc. I’m lucky to know a lot of good men in my life.

I certainly don’t think all men are lazy. Many men work incredibly hard and are very motivated and proactive. There are tons of lone fathers, through bereavement or relationship breakdown, who work just as hard as lone mothers. Men who care for their partners, parents or other loved ones. Men who are proactive and equal partners.

But I agree in general, straight men have been socially conditioned (as we all have) to sexism, leaving women to be their (unpaid and often unappreciated) domestic servants. In my experience, this can be particularly true of men who had mothers who didn’t work outside the home at all, or much, in their formative years. So, their reference point for women in relationships can be they do everything, or most things, at home and/or with childcare.

They may have also learned from fathers, grandfathers or friends an attitude that men go out to work in physically demanding (especially back in the day), ‘important’ or higher paid jobs, so shouldn’t be expected to devote time or energy on things at home. They may subconsciously view cleaning or childcare as less important jobs, even though they’re essential and valuable. And some just seem less ‘house-proud’ than women and don’t appear to notice mess or grubbiness, even when living without a woman.

But I’m not sure it’s usually due to laziness, as men who don’t share household tasks often have plenty of enthusiasm and energy for things that are important to them, whether it’s their job, sport, socialising or other hobbies.

I think its 50/50 women can be the same.

Mine aren’t. Disabled husband works full time in spite of crying in pain at night sometimes. Son is up at 5 to work a hospitality job whilst he spends free time searching for a position in his chosen field.

Maybe find some new male friends?

I agree with this. I think a lot of men can be selfish but not lazy.

I agree with PP that (broadly speaking of course), rather than laziness, it's selfishness and a desire not to do more than is needed when they're unsure of the return, especially when they see others aren't also doing something.
The men at my work are less likely to put their hands up for extra work. They're also more insistent on getting credit when they do do something extra. Women are more likely to do thankless, background jobs.

Well if I could get away with not doing something I would.

I think the point is, most men, if they had the option to just go to work and do their hobbies and a woman would take on all the domestic stuff- they would gladly take it.
Many already do, pretty much, other than the famed “car stuff and DIY”.
Whereas I don’t think the vast majority of women would. There’d be guilt and anxiety and they would realise just how much of a free pass they were getting.
Fwiw as a lone parent I did the lot- childcare, housework AND car stuff, DIY, decorating, garden, trips to the tip… it’s the thankless drudgery of cleaning the bathroom and the kitchen that really grinds you down.
On moving in with a man I fully expected my domestic load to halve… it didn’t! It didn’t massively increase, and he would wash up and cook and shop, but the extra laundry and mess wasn’t negated. There wasn’t a drop in how much I did, at all.
It lasted a year and I decided the benefits of cohabitation were not enough. You can either do more or you can be a nag and neither appealed.
It’s literally only on MN that women apparently share the load equally. All my friends work and all of them do vastly more drudgery.

@vivainsomnia

On this forum, women always come up as matyrs, forced by their horrible partners to take on the worse position in their relationship whilst men have it so easy.

Yet when you speak to many before marriage, they will tell friends and family how much they look forward to getting out of the rat race of working 9-5 and being at work looking lovingly after their kids and home.

That's all good and well if that's what you want from marriage. Not so great if you're forced into it by default because your husband's need to prioritise his own career and social life doesn't allow you to advance in yours.

An awful lot of men aren't prepared to make the minor sacrifices which are necessary to support their partner's careers (such as, for example, leaving work a little earlier to pick children up from childcare or indeed paying for childcare). That can force women into being full time carers by default and that's a miserable place to be if its not what you want. The trouble is women often don't realise until they've had children how much their ability to advance in a career depends on having this sort of support at home.

I think broadly you're right about the majority of men, yes, but the minority can be quite get-up-and-go. I'm much lazier than my DH, especially with housework as I have some chronic illnesses that cause fatigue.

@phoenixrosehere

And many women do those things too! Not sure why there is always someone who trots out diy and garden care as if women don’t. Plus, those are jobs that you cannot often care for young children at the same time.

That's the whole point though. It's irrelevant whether women and men can do it, its whether the division of labour is preventing one partner from being economically active.

Where the rubber really hits the road with misogyny in the home is when men can't or won't do ongoing childcare or the humdrum day to day work which is necessary to keep the household ticking over: the reason it matters is because if women are having to do all of this it's eating into time which they could be using to earn money.

If your husband refuses to pick the kids up from nursery because he doesn't want to ask his boss to leave work half an hour earlier because it will damage his career, its the woman who will have to do this which impacts on her own ability to advance at work. Ditto if the house is a shit tip and he's too hungover to do any of it because he's been out at a leaving do and she can't catch up on stuff she didn't do during the working day. (I speak from experience on both fronts).

Women can and do do DIY and garden care as well as men, but no one ever had to call in sick at work because they needed to creosote a fence or put up a hanging basket.

DIY and garden care yes but these are a bit of a red herring: neither of these is usually critical to the day to day functioning of a household and the care of children
If it doesn't work, then the division of tasks was badly done at some point. Why is that only the man's fault?

"Working in higher demanding roles" is something you get paid for and which women can and do get paid for but they also have to do most of the unpaid drudgery that keeps the lights on at home. A man who decides he will do the "higher demanding roles" to the exclusion of the drudgery is essentially consigning his partner to spending all her life on unpaid work, which either limits her own ability to make money or leaves her so ragged that she has no time for herself
On this forum, women always come up as matyrs, forced by their horrible partners to take on the worse position in their relationship whilst men have it so easy.

Yet when you speak to many before marriage, they will tell friends and family how much they look forward to getting out of the rat race of working 9-5 and being at work looking lovingly after their kids and home.

Women are not helpless. They can chose to work towards a well paid job just like their partner. My OH has always done more with the house because he has higher standards than me. I have always done more with the children. He did his ironing, I did mine and the kids. I We have worked similar jobs with similar stress levels. We were clear from the start that this would be the case. There is no resentment because it was clear from the start and noone changed their mind along the line without agreeing it with the other.

DIY and garden care yes but these are a bit of a red herring: neither of these is usually critical to the day to day functioning of a household and the care of children.

And many women do those things too! Not sure why there is always someone who trots out diy and garden care as if women don’t. Plus, those are jobs that you cannot often care for young children at the same time.

@vivainsomnia

There is so much more to life demands than just that. Never hear about DIY, garden care, working in higher demanding roles, commuting etc...

Fine, but the output of that is that men are by and large choosing to prioritise roles which they find remunerative or interesting and don't bog them down in unpaid drudgery.

"Working in higher demanding roles" is something you get paid for and which women can and do get paid for but they also have to do most of the unpaid drudgery that keeps the lights on at home. A man who decides he will do the "higher demanding roles" to the exclusion of the drudgery is essentially consigning his partner to spending all her life on unpaid work, which either limits her own ability to make money or leaves her so ragged that she has no time for herself.

The point is that men (NAMALT caveat included) choose to spend their energy on tasks they deem important while women usually take all the tasks that men consider less important.

That's OK if the woman is fine with this division of labour. Not so much if the woman wants to be out there making her own money and can't because the man has decided she should spend all her time on unpaid work in the home.

DIY and garden care yes but these are a bit of a red herring: neither of these is usually critical to the day to day functioning of a household and the care of children.

I'm writing this whilst I'm under my duvet, being all cosy and my OH is vacuuming the house!

Yes but I work FT and hold another PT job. He works 3days. Children all grown up. When I retire, I'll share more of the housework tasks.

that matter to THEM and benefit THEM - most of which, funnily enough, rarely include cleaning
Surely women are as guilty to pick what they want to do to.

Ultimately, if the division is going to lead to resentment, both are responsible for discussing said division and agree something both consider fair.

Lazy, no. Completely self-centred, yes.

My thoughts are in the same vein as @Icannoteven