"Trans people should not be allowed to use women’s showers and changing rooms, proposed NHS guidance says" - Darlington Nurses draft new guidance.

It is not possible to see if the person has "fully transitioned" though (and imo he is still a man) but even if there was solid data that shows a man that had fully transitioned posed no threat (and there isn't- in fact data points to the fact that men retain the same propensity for male pattern violence regardless of medical transition and they retain the strength of their male body).it is not possible to tell that the fully dressed man in front of you has a penis or not - so women should not be expected to take that chance.

For Christmas I'd like all the silly femphobes and misogynists to be quiet for just one day about their obsession with putting males with penis and testicles in the ladies, @Flapjacka .

Mixed third space options are the answer.

I went to an art exhibition at a synagogue a while back and found a ladies, a gents and a mixed sex area, all with changing places. Everyone comfortable and accommodated.

Quite. Isn't it amazing how for centuries and millennia men and women never had a problem telling men and women apart?

Now all of a sudden we are assured by some that we 'can't tell'. Wtf?! This world has truly regressed. Fuck knows how the world reproduced for centuries, until now, if we can't tell a man from a woman.

Do these people ever stop for one moment, even 30 seconds, to engage their brains before typing and pressing send?

Fully agree on both counts, @TheKeatingFive

Personally I think it's up to men to decide if they are happy to have 'trans men' in their spaces.

But let's not forget that the power dynamic between men and 'trans men' is totally different to the power dynamic between women and 'transwomen'

You're the third person on this thread to ask that question, and the question is not even original. And is answered over and over and over again on every fucking thread on this topic.

I think you need to check the definition of ‘hate crime’ . Does it include misgendering someone? Using a slur? Someone putting a sticker up that someone doesn’t like?

Have you also wondered why female people are not protected by a hate crime law that is symmetrical to the protections that people with transgender identities have? The system would be overwhelmed .

If you are transgender but you have had surgery to change your body parts then yes, you should be allowed to be in the showers as your corresponding gender.

There is zero logic to this position though.

Cutting off body parts doesn't change your sex.

As for what it does to your 'gender' - this is where logical reasoning leaves to room entirely. Aren't there 74 genders? Or 120? So which ones have male appendages and which ones don't?

Call the police. The police can remove them/do a body search.

If this happens enough, transwomen won't dare risk it. The Social Contract will again be in place. FFS, we managed for literally DECADES AND DECADES, until now!

I also haven't heard of transmen threatening murder or suicide en masse if men won't give them what they want.

@Sae3005 Having your cock removed doesn't make you less of a male, you still have male height, size and strength.

And as said previously, women and girls spaces are not just for our privacy and dignity away from the male gaze, a male is still a male, neutered or not. Females, rape survivors, DV survivors, all trauma victims need spaces free of males so we can speak freely and feel at ease.

The way people talk about trans people here is disgusting.

What do you mean by this?

Is it telling the truth to them and saying no?

Thats what you think is 'disgusting'?

There are plenty of transmen on SM crying and whining because they are not accepted as gay men, and I have heard of transmen going into gay saunas and getting upset when the men there don't want to interact with them. I haven't heard of any men being attacked or forced to have sex with transmen.

No its how we talk about MALE people. Not 'trans'. And have you seen the way trans/trans activists talk about women who simply want our basic human rights? Go away and address their violence and how they speak to us as subhuman filth. Don't lecture women. Only 4 out of a collection of around 500 I have:

Female, male and mixed spaces

any male demanding to be allowed to use female spaces based on a feeling tells you everything you need to know about him, he won’t let go of his male entitlement and there is nothing female about him at all

There is more than one way to sexually abuse and harass a female person than using a penis.

And the harm to female people is far wider than just a male using their penis to harm them. Harm also includes a female person having to self exclude because they know a male person uses that space. And yes, it is highly likely that a female person can correctly sex a male person.

My friend’s gym had a gender neutral changing room but the door just led into the women’s changing room. She complained and they did nothing about it. Her husband complained and they changed it back to a second women’s door 🫠

No.

They are still a male person, they are a male person without a penis or testicles.

There is no evidence that a male at any stage of transition has a risk level lower than any of male in the UK of committing sexual abuse or sex crimes.

If you look at the arguments being made to shut women up on this issue, they're all the same misogynistic shite that's served the same purpose since year dot. Gendered insults like Karen and terf? Check. (While pretending they don't know who the women are.) And dismissing women's concerns, even after they're proven to be valid over and over, by telling then they're just silly, irrational, insane and, of course, hate men, which is exactly what transphobia means in the current context? Check, check, check.

It's exactly the same misogynistic and really quite unintelligent rhetoric that has been used to silence women over centuries. The only difference is, this time they even expect us not to see that they're constantly proving that they know who the women are.

I follow a few intersex individuals on twitter. They all prefer the term DSD.

Being 'cis' (as far as I knew that term is banned on mumsnet?) is not a 'privilege'. You are being deeply insulting. Females are the oppressed sex class. Being female is not a 'privilege', @Duebug . As for "less represented", I hope that is tongue in cheek because there is no group as over-represented, as privileged, as powerful or as protected as trans. They are at the very top of the totem pole. Way above 'c1s' males even. Not even gay men had anywhere near the privilege and representation that trans have.

It's fine - silly doesn't apply to the intelligent, articulate, witty, well informed women of this board.

The fact that the side of the debate that can't tell the difference between people and palm trees/clown fish regards those understand human biology as 'silly' is, well for want of a better word silly! 😜

Oh not this bs again! @MyDogIsNonBinary The Williams 'Institute' report was flawed and debunked. That its still being used is hilarious as it was laughed out of the sphere, even they had to make a clarification.

Though common sense should tell one that the suggestion a male in a dress is 'more at risk' than an ACTUAL WOMAN is batshit fucking crazy and ridiculous! It doesn't take the brain of a goldfish to realise that.

I mean, just think about it. Who are more at risk of sexual assault/rape? Males (in or out of dresses)? Or females. FFS. Btw, that 'survey' was self-selected and self-reporting, and included women saying 'no' to men or 'strange looks' as 'harassment' and 'hate'.

Williams clarification is the second image.

I don't get this either

I cannot believe people are coming out with this cr*p still in 2024.

Silly women need to shut up and do what men ask of them. That's your position right? 🫠